Forum:First Vocaloid

Theres been a debate on the first Vocaloid a person should buy for some while now. There seems to be two opinions at VO on it.


 * 1) The first are the ones who think its best to buy a Vocaloid you like. It works on the theory that you will be motivated because you like it.
 * 2) The second are the ones who think its best to buy a Vocaloid based on praticality.

I'll give a basis of the argument.

The folks arguing the first think that people will be motivated if they have the voice they like. They don't care about the technical side and see Vocaloid as a toy. Tbhey argue voices that you don't like are not going to ever be used.

The folks who say that you should buy to needs are trying to warn people that fun is fun; but you will likely end up wasting your money on something you can use. The reason given for this is because when you buy a Japanese Vocaloid and you can't use it, you end up shelving it anyway or just importing VSQ's because its harder to make use of something you don't know how to use.

I'd say my thoughts on VO, but if the response is too long they only quote your post and write (rudely) "Stuff" underneath it to say "you wrote too much". I admit I have a lot of opinions but I also know a lot about Vocaloids. I read too much sadly.

I'm not the authourity on what people should or shouldn't do nor do I know everything on Vocaloid. I've seen so many times people buy Japanese Vocaloids and then discover that it was a mistake because they can't use it that I don't find it funny. If someone asks for advise their doing a form of research, sure its a lazy one but their going on the advice of others. I usually stop caring about purchases after they've been done because I know from yahoo anwsers you can tell someone lots of sound good advice and they can ignore it.

However, I am disappointed how many people neglect to tell someone just in 1 post that unless they know the phonetics of the Vocaloids their choosing from, they are best saving their money for other Vocaloids in the language they can use. I'm not mentioning names because I'm not venting here, I'm just explaining the situation on VO because its cropped up elsewhere as the same response.

If you just warn people in 1 post that they might not be able to use a Japanese Vocaloid unless they know Japanese, then it goes a long way. They can always ignore you; but you warned them thats all thats important. This should be the first thing anyone does and yet I see more rushing to say which Vocaloid they should buy.

Even if they buy a Vocaloid in their own language thats not so simple. Its not like a figurine you put up a shelf, this is a professional software suite. Its BIG thing. I have 4 Vocaloid 2 voicebanks... And I interchange all the time on the 4 to the point where I'm sometimes not sure which ones are better then the others. This is the same for a LOT of Vocaloids, and I hold Giuseppe's comment that the vocals all have their own personnelities as one of the best comments made by anyone related to Vocaloids.

The VO member I spoke with over the last 24 hours was happy enough letting them waste $200 on software they like. If they can't use it its their own fault. For me its this attitude thats the problem with the first approach to buying a Vocaloid. Then again, I've seen what happens when things go sour. I can't explain that to them though and I give up.

9/10 users of Vocaloid don't seem to develope this through anyway and most result to just VSQ swapping even if they get a English Vocaloid. But they can do so much more with the right vocal. I will say the issues with all non-Japanese Vocaloids is lack of diversity, but in some cases thats unavoidable at the moment. Still there is a good selection out there.

I'll guess I'll end this with my thoughts on first Vocaloids.

Firstly the whole issue of "Vocaloid is fun" or a "toy" is usually based on the assumption that everyone has the same defination on what fun is.

I'll describe my usage.

Tonio to sing right becuse I LOVE his vocal because he is THE vocal I enjoy working with it. But I end up usually switching to Big Al because Big Al is the best male Vocaloid I have. I have the same with Sonika and Prima. Prima is the better vocal, but I like working with Sonika. Sonika sadly doesn't come out well most of the time so I end up switching to Prima. I don't find Sonika fun and I find Prima boring. Most of my songs I have produced used Tonio or Big Al and Prima and Sonika rarely see use. >_<

So Fun for me is when the Vocaloids work well together or do what I want them to do, I'm not a VSQ swapper or a youtube uploader. I LITERALLY do Vocaloid for "fun" but my defination of fun is seeing how they sound when I make them sing correctly.

Also, I will say my FAVOURITE vocal I'd like to work with is VY2, but after using Lily and Iroha demos (I refused to use Piko because of Sony's restrictions) I found I can't work with Japanese Vocaloids and I refuse to fork out the £'s for software I won't work with. At all. Japanese vocals are not fun to work with when you can't use them therefore I'm not going to bother with and I never tell someone to buy a Japanese vocal without first giving them the warning that "They only speak Japanese". They were simply useless to me... Beyond "lalala" which the 4 I have already can do. ^_-

I have no cribs with anyone who knows how to use Japanese Vocaloids working with them and heck "go ahead you know your stuff mate don't let me get you down!" because I liek a good J-loid as much as a good Engloid. And plus now there are a ton of choices for them their a lot more open. :-D

Next thing is people also have mixed feelings about giving advice on the first Vocaloids. Most Japanese Vocaloid users start with Miku and until 2010 she was ranked as the easiest Vocaloid to work with. The hardest was Luka because you had to learn two entirely different sets of phonetics and she was a experienced Vocaloid based on that alone. Luka's ultimate design is for those who want both languages at once but most use one or the other, which is a shame because there are better vocaloids that do either. Yet many overseas buy her to have the ability to see what works for them. :-/

So even the first Vocaloid is not so simple and already we have 2 choices to pick from.

If your going into English Vocaloids, traditionally the best first Vocaloids are Ann and Al. Though not because their the best Vocaloids, as many complain because if you took out the softness of Zero-G's they'd be the better vocals overall. Ann has the right accent for a English Vocaloid and its easier to hide roboticness of "r" sounds with her because she pronounces everything funny anyway. Al is the clearest vocal so most EQ is surrounded on controling him and its easier to work with something you can hear the faults with quickly.

There needs to be a stepping stone system though where as soon as you get your first vocals your planning the next. 1 Vocal won't do everything you hoped for. For instance, I found Sonika useless for my uses on her own and ended up partnering her with Al because the weight of each other's vocals held Sonika together.

So the next vocal has to be one that will work or compliment the current Vocaloid. I do have some suggestions;


 * From Al you can go Ann, Tonio, Sonika or Luka both will work with his vocal. Prima is a little bit of a middle ground because the opera singer situation with her.
 * However, from Sonika I can only say; Luka, Prima, Al, because Tonio doesn't always fit naturally with her and Ann drowns her out.
 * From Ann its Al or Tonio (she drowns Sonika and Luka)
 * From Tonio, Ann, Al, Prima (especially)
 * Prima; Tonio, Sonika, Luka
 * Luka will blend with other female Engloids of similiar vocal range and Sonika, Prima are the best choices.

This is ulimately why I label Al as a good solid beginner vocaloid because he has more options to him. This isn't a ultimate guide though and its up to EQ and usage how they work out.

Equally things become difficult when you cross over Vocaloid langauges Big Al doesn't work with some of the Japanese Vocaloids. Miku sounds arkward with him usually for instance, its better to get her to sing over him then with him. He will compliment Gakupo though. I'm not going to write a list as theres now too many factors in this and if your buying two for the sake of harmony, its best to stick with the Kagamines as a starter, even other I'd not advise them otherwise as a beginer vocal due to that reputation.

The big issue with soft vocals is how easily they get drowned out without good EQ.

Japanese Vocaloids are a mess of complexicity and its not so simple to map it out the Vocaloids out. I would say then its best to buy a vocal that fits the range your aiming for. Alternatively, buy two very different Vocaloids that cover two different ranges so you have a bigger choice. So Gakupo and Kiyoteru are two examples and Miku and Iroha another from the girls. The Kagamines are a nice all round vocals and you can cheat with some vocals like Len and Yuki, who are in the range where both boys and girls can access. Len's a girl in boy's briefs anyway.

One thing to consider is that a lot of veteran fans don't recommend soft vocals such as Sonika or Luka and they have a habbit of being placed as low quality. However, a few are actually better quality they the ones with clear sounds. Point in case Luka divides fans. She has more vowel sounds then Miku or the Kagamine's but is rated lower for the softness. Yet her samples are cleaning the Miku or the Kagamines? If she had more omph to her she'd be placed higher then Miku or the Kagamines. :-/

This is all I can think of saying on the matter. If anyone actuall bothers to read all this, I hope they get the idea of what I'm getting at. Ultimately, the Japanese Vocaloids varity makes them also equally complicated. Too many options. At least you know if you want a good atmospheric Vocal then Prima or Tonio with their strong opera vocals are a good choice on the Engloids side.

I wish they had made another Vocaloid for Korean... Theres simply no choice for those who want to work with K-loids and the SBS "She can do english" claim has made them a bit embarressing because the wikia is suppose to note these kind of things. There are literally English speakers taking this to heart. Thank goodness their correcting this now.

I will note that even in Japan, they do consider J-loids doing english as low quality, thats why even Luka's weak english voicebank gets reffered to as "HQ". Becuase it naturally produces better vocals then her Japanese vocal. Ditto its the same across the board. A engloid doing Japanese is not a HQ Japanese result. Its also why some native speakers have issues with Luka because she tries to be Japanese even when she sings in English. I will note there have been cases where in a the few bilingual songs I've heard, I really struggled to tell when she switched languages suddenly to the point where its until the 3 or 4th word I've realised she did switch.

the Vocaloids have differences based on language and therefore there is some things else to consider. You all ALWAYS pick up the unatural sounds of Vocaloids in your own language and some are a lot more easier to tell them others. Likewise, even if you know the phonetics of non-native, you might find it harder to work with them because you will not know when the pronounications off.

Be aware that improvements are made to Vocaloids over time and therefore older Vocaloids are often poorer quality, even at their best, then newer ones. Though this isn't safe to use as a measure all the time (SeeU Japanese has been rated on par with Kagamine Act2 which was made in 2008). And at the moment lots of vocals are coming out so if none satisfy a need, wait.

To cut to the point back right at the start about Vocaloid = fun; Most don't buy Vocaloids as a toy like the excuse I often hear, they buy it for the social status, its an expensive piece of equiptment like a good gitar or a laptop. Its impressive to show off... And some satisifaction is gained from wowing others. Its the same with Minecraft... People spend hours on it to get one compliment, likewise people just throw a random video in youtube of a vsq they (stole, borrowed, wrote) a lot of the time for the same thing.

Like the guy who studies Yugioh cards for others so he can argue on the net and be in with the crowd of fans, likewise you get this in the Vocaloid fandom.

Very few Vocaloid producers in the overseas are supported and getting anywhere andhoenstly... At least 50% of the Miku users here in this fandom I see are using Pocaloid anyway. Heck, theres a guy on VO right now who asked questions I know has the illegal version, hence why he won't throw up screenshots (and the guys there don't know about him beyond 1 person who I made aware of). ^_-

A LOT of the people who vocaloid weres impley best off not with with UTAU acting as freebie alternative. Theres no excuse for not testing you can work with the phonetics of a langauge anymore before you buy a Vocaloid you can't use and there are now more then Crypton Future Media, Internet, Zero-G and PowerFX to investigate.

I will leave this at this note; if you really honestly don't know if you can use the software, stick with CDs and figurines and don't buy a Vocaloid. It will save you the £££/$$$'s.

At least buying the CDs supports the Produicers behind the songs, the ones that can use it...