Talk:Kagamine Rin & Len/@comment-35532896-20181021100238/@comment-53539-20181120130044

Honestly... In regards to myself I can only speak on my own behalf. I can say for sure I am not being closed minded, but as I just said I'm aware of others being like that.

If we're on the scale of things then yes, I've never found a song I like of the Kagamines myself except Baby Bear. But the contrast between this and Miku who I also consider my 3rd least favourite... I like the vocal Miku Dark and there are some songs I can enjoy despite it. Its down to preference, in my case, I just don't like these kind of vocals, with my only real Dark Horse being I like Macne Nana. In Nana's case I didn't like her until I heard her in her original Reason and G.Band forms, because they triggered a nostalgia memory of synths from the past. She is in my top 3 vocals, with Tonio and Big Al being ahead of her. If you look at the vocals I tend to go for I like the masculine vocals, but female wise I prefer the mature ones with vocals that stand out like Lola. One of the problems I found with Gumi was over time she has become less of a stand out, but once she was in my top 10 favourite Vocaloids. Opinions of my own are subject to change because more vocals get released over time. This is to be expected as any song or release can change my opinions on a vocal, with only my favourites being the ones that are most solid set in place just because no matter how anyone tries the vocals don't appeal to me.

And even then, everyone is entitled to like the vocals they want. However, just because I like Tonio the most of all I don't go around saying "Tonio I the best Vocaloid/vocal" because I know thats not true. Even if he was I'd not say that, because as a opera singer he is grounded in a style and cannot break out of it. A lot of Vocaloids struggle to break out of certain styles such as Sachiko or Prima, hese vocals aren't easy to use but doesn't mean their bad. But likewise the same works in reverse with the easiest to use not ness. being the best we have. Take the classic case of Miku V2, Miku did not remain popular at the end of the V2 era because she was HQ, VY1 had already out classed all other females there and VY2 the males. She was popular because she was "easy to use", because she just was aimed to sound cute and had a voice that easily morphed into other sounds, on top of being already well established. The problem was we saw a lot of people latch onto the VYs HQ and like them but seemingly not liking them for any other reason. It was a sharp contrast to the Kagamines whose fans begun to get stick because their reputation was their one of the worst, when in reality they were only a step down from Miku and it was due to their typing being "power". V2 struggled with vocals aimed for power and the Kagamines, being rushed out, hit the problem area. Meiko V3 Power had the same problem and if not for improvements in V3, would not be with us because of it. Vocaloid also struggled with deeper vocal ranged vocals and Tonio, Kaito, VY2, Big Al among others suffered because of that.

In the end I'm open to anything changing my mind. For crying out loud, I grew up listening to the Atari STE synthesizer, so for me compared to many younger fans of the 00s who never grew up with that sound... The bar is set low. I am quite open to having a wide variety of synthesized sounds and even though I enjoy the Chipspeech software it does not mean I like every vocal it offers equally. Jus the same as for Vocaloid. UTAU would be the same boat, but the engine sound it produces is uncomfortable on the ears when compared with samples of the human vocal, the vast majority of UTAU vocals I simply cannot listen to. If your going to be realistic, you have to sound realistic, if not, its better you don't. This is why I also don't like Alter/ego despite it using Chipspeechs same engine, what works for one case doesn't in another. I expect no less from anyone else who loves Vocaloid or vocal synthesizers, as I myself have enjoyed them since I was a kid growing up in the late 80s and early 90s.

So yes, I do get concerned for other users who are closed minded, but I am an open book subject to change if something else comes along that wows me more. Tonio, Big Al and Nana only sit on the top of my favourites because nothing else has best them in terms of preference, Miku and the Kagamines sit on the bottom because they have impressed me the least so far. But this can change. I do not go around bragging how good my top 3 are and I don't instantly run down the bottom 3 and you will even see me defend them at times because thats what I do when it comes to the crunch. I am a passionate Vocaloid fan and would gladly defend any Vocaloid in the eye of haters myself, because "fan" is short for "fanatic" after all of which everyone calling themselves a "fan" is. In short, just because I don't like the Kagamines, doesn't mean I'll kick them to the dirt if someone outside the fandom tries to use them to pick on Vocaloid. After all not every one of their voicebanks were utter crap and its only Act1 and Act2 with the real problems, and CFM's tendency not to treat them well compared to Miku or Luka. The same goes for Meiko, SeeU, Maika, etc, all the vocals I neither enjoy nor like. And I would expect no less then this from any other fan. Heck, you will see me bring up the 2010-2012 period of anti-English vocaloid for this reason as that has been my biggest fight over time thats left some of the coldest and harshest memories of this fandom behind. You will see me praise VO'forums for what good it did, but remember how dark it could be due to bias and misconceptions among its forum goers. You will note how I've create vocal synthesizer pages at Wikipedia and elsewhere to give each synth a chance to have its own fans gather in a place to do the same as we do to Vocaloid as that is how I spread my love as a fan - by giving a chance for others to do the same.

I do, however, enjoy a good nerd out session and try to learn as much on Vocaloid both as a strength and a weakness. The sad part is the vocals of CFM are among the most well documented vocals because of their high level of use, so just as their strengths are known as are their weaknesses. And too often people compare other Vocaloids to them, which after 8 years is something you get used to.

But yes, there is a problem with it in the fandom, I already mentioned VOforums when it was open its 2010-2012 period from my experience was its worst time. Lots of members who spouted nonsense about vocals they didn't have a clue on, running down English Vocaloid as I mentioned because they didn't like the vocals without realising Sweet Ann actually was more realistic then Miku despite saying otherwise. The whole point of this wiki itself is to help promote the entire Vocaloid franchise and all its vocals, though it does not mean we will not all express our opinions on other Vocaloid. As a community of fans and nerds, I expect no less then for us to do that. As off putting as it is for someone to encounter someone like myself who can type for England a lengthy post, I do, however put all my thoughts on a matter into things. Its a expression of love and respect for Vocaloid and other fans in our fandom. I don't, however, expect everyone to feel the same way I do about such lengthy posts. A fandom show be about express our thoughts and opinion freely, criticism and praise. A single post can change our minds on Vocaloids forever, so to have any closed minded fans is problematic for all of us. But I know its all a matter of time.

People grow up, change their mind on things all the time. My duty as a veteran fan I see is to encourage others to get into this fandom and share my existing knowledge with the newbies so they learn this stuff and stick around. So if I'm closed minded, the newbies adopt that same subset of closed mindedness and I stand by that veterans such as myself are usually among the worst fans at times. When newbies get things wrong, its because they don't know better - when we do the same its bas because we should know better. However, I do admit there are times we don't get to ness. show our openness. There are times when someone says "Len is the best" and due to time or whatever we have 5 mins to explain ourselves and we can't. So one can appear closed minded. Likewise, when you just start out you may be indeed open minded, but due to your limited exposure have a lot of naivety and ignorance. That is expected too.

Sorry for the long post, I've been holding onto some thoughts for a long time on the matter.