Board Thread:News and Announcements/@comment-35301431-20130822203251/@comment-35301431-20130822203301

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Kimi2.0

"mascot character" Im seriously sick of the word mascot. 26 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Dizzyzebra

x3 I myself am a fan it's so useful

I apologise in advance for annoying you Kimi. orz 26 days ago by Dizzyzebra delete edit history

Kimi2.0

What's useful about forcefully tearing one of the integral parts of the Vocaloid from the other part, using a derogatory term that implies lack of any more significance than being there for eye candy effect?

If a Vocaloid is designed with a face and body then they together with the voice make up ONE. Period.

It's like making a page about celebrity and saying that their face is just a mascot for fans to look at and for their company to base their marketing around them. Even if that's true in most cases, normally no one would say that. Ugh.

Edit

And before you go, "but Vocaloids are just tools, not real people, you silly derp" Well, real people tend to be just as much of a tools and products in essence. And for many many people Vocaloids are much more than tools and products. 26 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Dizzyzebra

o: I don't see it as derogatory, just a helpful word that specifies that particular element of a Vocaloid. 'The face of a Vocaloid' is also a nice phrase, but doesn't fit quite so well in titles and whatnot.

We don't have a word whose original meaning and connotations quite fits with what some faces of Vocaloid have evolved into (due to occasional the inclusion of backstory and fan's sentimentality towards them) so the use of 'mascot' here is almost a term of art. Luckily the natural flexibility of the term helps it be a catch-all, as the designs vary in how they are thought of in the fandom. e.g Miku's face and her voice are almost indispensible, but other Vocaloids differ in how closely they are tied. 26 days ago by Dizzyzebra delete edit history

Kimi2.0

"Characters". The word is "characters". If you absolutely need to break them down into parts.

Mascot is something that runs on a football field during match break, wtf. 26 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Dizzyzebra

I suppose the problem is 'character' can also be interwined with any set personality or vocal characteristics, and in some cases implies more than just a face. But I'm sure that'd work too in most cases nonetheless. n_n 26 days ago by Dizzyzebra delete edit history

Kimi2.0

Because they are more than just a face ._. 26 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Dizzyzebra

Very true. u_u Due to lack of canon, all their depths are different and can't really be chronicalled, so the face is the only stable thing that can go on the wikia really (*´・ｖ・) 26 days ago by Dizzyzebra delete edit history

Kimi2.0

Except a lot of them actually has canon. Especially Azuki and Maccha that are supposedly getting a whole franchise about them. And even if there is no canon and no one set personality they are still characters as long as they have name and body and stories can be made that feature them.

Okay whatever. I just mean a Vocaloid is a Vocaloid. 26 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Angel Emfrbl

I don't think its too much of a fuss, to be fair the use of the word "mascot" and complaining about it really is picky since we've been using it since... 2011? 26 days ago by Angel Emfrbl delete edit history

Kimi2.0

Obviously it's not a problem for you considering you use the term on a daily basis. And just because something was there for a long time doesn't mean it's good. 25 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Angel Emfrbl

"Why fix whats not broken" though Kim? 25 days ago by Angel Emfrbl delete edit history

Kimi2.0

I very much think it's broken. 25 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Angel Emfrbl

Its not though.

"Characters" is not really what 100% faithfully what they are, though you'd think that are they are not. The actual two words we that best describe the artwork for each vocaloid are either "avatar" and "mascot" and are best how the Japanese community would describe it. So we decided pretty early on to use those words. "Mascot" tends to be the one we go for, but "Avatar" is fine to use in a interchangeable term, especially for the Japanese vocaloids. But "character" is not quite right and feels like its only half the description of what each Vocaloid illustration is even if it was suitable.

I'd explain this, but I'm just tired of arguments lately on the wikia, I feel like someone is trying to argue the older crowds into submission when we've been working along fine. Yes, its not broken...

I honestly feel like now your JUST being picky. :-/       25 days ago by Angel Emfrbl delete edit history

Kimi2.0

It is though.

I honestly don't care what you think I am. Callling them mascots is wrong since they are not mascots.

And don't bring Japanese fandom into this, they treat all of the Vocaloids like actual girls and idols.

Especially it's wrong to call mascots the Vocaloids who will be getting anime and will have preset personality.

As I said, mascot is something that runs on a field during a match break, or is chosen to represent something. A character can become a mascot for something, but the Vocaloid itself is not a mascot for their voice. That's just wrong and screwed. 25 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Angel Emfrbl

Of all the issues I could be discussing here with you right now Kim, I feel like this one is the biggest waste of time of them all.

Give it a break Kim, you're starting to go too far on things.

Its been fine since 2010, seriously, resolve the other issues and come back to this one when we've fixed the bigger issues over new vocaloids needing to fix.

Because really... I don't see the change of words really impacting the wikia much at all. Nor wasting hours changing things that are fine on literally hundreds of pages on the wikia.

Miku's illustration is established as a "avatar" or "Mascot", I'm so sorry you feel this is a discussion worth wasting everyone's time over... Why not focus on bigger issues right now? 25 days ago by Angel Emfrbl delete edit history

Kimi2.0

Who is everyone again? I'm just talking with you. And actually, Miku is reffered to by Crypton itself as a Virtual Idol. On piapro all of their Vocaloids are reffered as "characters". On Internet's Co.'s community sites, Gumi, Gakupo and the others also are reffered to as "characters". 25 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Adept-eX

I thought mascot, character or avatar basically were the same thing. 25 days ago by Adept-eX delete edit history

ThePinkPaciferous

Sorry I'm late to the conversation, but I don't like the term 'mascot' either. It implies the VOCALOID is just a face, an image, and nothing more. .-.       23 days ago by ThePinkPaciferous delete edit

Angel Emfrbl

@Pink... Erm... Thats EXACTLY what the illustrations are.

And why we've used "mascot".

Beyond the installation screen, the images have 0% to do with the actual software. :-/       21 days ago by Angel Emfrbl delete edit

ThePinkPaciferous

^ But an avatar/character design isn't the same thing as a mascot... The word just seems so...irrelevant. :l 21 days ago by ThePinkPaciferous delete edit

63.155.235.221

[edit] char·ac·ter

[kar-ik-ter] Show IPAnoun1.the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing.2.one such feature or trait; characteristic.3.moral or ethical quality: a man of fine, honorable character.4.qualities of honesty, courage, or the like; integrity: It takes character to face up to a bully.5.reputation: a stain on one's character. [edit] mas·cot

[mas-kot, -kuht] Show IPAnounan animal, person, or thing adopted by a group as its representative symbol and supposed to bring goodluck  Choose I guess? 21 days ago by 63.155.235.221 delete edit

Kimi2.0

Software and image are one... but it doesn't matter you can think of them as 'mascots', but they are reffered to as characters by companies themselves. Links?

CRYPTON:

http://www.crypton.co.jp/miku_eng

"Hatsune Miku has traveled an interesting path from vocal synthesizer product to beloved collaboratively constructed cyber celebrity with a growing user community across the world. She is also often called a global icon or ‘hub’, because the culture around her encourages a worldwide creative community to produce and share Miku-related content."

http://piapro.net/en_for_creators.html

"[]...Those licenses only apply to the original illustrations of the characters, and any music, videos, illustrations and 3DCG related to Crypton's characters are NOT licensed under CC license unless otherwise noted. These existing artworks include copyrights of the creators who made them. [...]"

"Only the original illustrations of the Characters released by Crypton are licensed under CC BY-NC"

"The Characters are licensed under CC BY-NC (which does not allow commercial use). But the only CC license currently available under YouTube is CC-Attribution (CC-BY), which allows commercial use. Therefore, unfortunately, any video clip of yours that contains any of the Characters cannot be uploaded on YouTube with a CC-BY license."

etc.

INTERNET CO:

https://www.facebook.com/GUMI.from.Megpoid/info

"About VOCALOID Megpoid and GUMI       "The virtual vocalist "GUMI" is the characer of VOCALOID Megpoid."

http://www.ssw.co.jp/products/vocal3/english_c_license/

"Permissions and VOCALOIDTM characters guidelines       The following guidelines are provided for the use of VOCALOIDTM characters, such as images, movies, names, dolls, and costumes. VOCALOIDTM characters are included in VOCALOIDTM software products released from INTERNET Co., Ltd., such as VOCALOIDTM2 Gackpoid, VOCALOIDTM2 Megpoid, VOCALOIDTM2 Lily, VOCALOIDTM3 Megpoid, VOCALOIDTM3 CUL , VOCALOIDTM3 Lily and VOCALOIDTM3 Gackpoid. To use such VOCALOIDTM characters, you must first agree to the following license terms.

1. Definition of term In this guidelines, "VOCALOIDTM characters" means copyrighted materials, such as images, designed characters, product's name("Gackpoid", "Megpoid", "Lily" and "CUL") and character's name("Kamui Gakupo", "GUMI", "Lily" and "CUL") used in the official web site or advertising materials for the sale.

2. Permission and prohibition You can exhibit and distribute VOCALOIDTM characters and secondary creations only for the personal or member circle's use under the non-business purpose.

You may not exhibit or distribute VOCALOIDTM characters and secondary creations which impairs the VOCALOIDTM characters' image remarkably, violates public policy or the rights of any third party."

Should I dig deeper?

Anon, your definition is of "character" as in personality, not "character" as in...em... fictional person. 21 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

ThePinkPaciferous

@Anon .221 I see you're an expert in copy and paste. 21 days ago by ThePinkPaciferous delete edit

71.22.220.208

I suggest a poll be created to see what fans think they should be called.

To add to the list, they are also called characters on Vocaloid.com ("Character Profiles"), and on AH-Software's site.

A "mascot" is normally something that represents an entire group. 21 days ago by 71.22.220.208 delete edit

ThePinkPaciferous

We don't need a poll for this. 'Mascot' just isn't the right word to be used here. 21 days ago by ThePinkPaciferous delete edit

Angel Emfrbl

@Kim; if thats a note of the CFM ENGLISH website, be aware that they've not translated into english quite so well as you've think.

They've had to take a few cultural notes into the question, which is why the kagamine's have been referred in the west as "twins" in several promotions, even though in Japan they've not. Furthermore Miku is an virtual instrumentalist in Japan and a virtual singer in the west confirmed for this very reason.

The english version of the website is not good enough evidence for this argument in this case. The translation is not nea4r perfect enough for this.

It happens a LOT when you go from Japanese to other langauges and cultures, this I'm speaking of as a once anime-fan not a editor as I say that. To go for this, we'd have to go back to the problem I once brought up on how we have no system for sorting out the importance of names. Like the One Piece wikia has a system where the name used in the manga takes present over the names in the anime, games etc in terms of spelling.

Until this issue is resolved, the english version just has no grounds, even though its from a legit source. Because we've got other sources countering it. :-/       21 days ago by Angel Emfrbl delete edit

Kimi2.0

Oh man, are you kidding me? I'm giving you official links by official companies and you are saying they are not good enough because they are in english? I can't believe this. I could just as well say that this is English wikia so what's the problem?

But okay, very well.

http://piapro.jp/license/character_guideline

"本ガイドラインの対象となるキャラクターは、以下のものです.        『MEIKO』、『KAITO』、『初音ミク』、『鏡音リン』、『鏡音レン』、『巡音ルカ』"

"The following CHARACTERS are covered under the guidelines"

"当社は、クリエイターの皆様がこれらキャラクターの二次創作を描いてネットで公表いただけるよう「ピアプロ・キャラクター・ライセンス」（PCL）を制定しています. "

"The company has established "Piapro CHARACTER License" for the internet creators as an officially aproved guideline of secondary use of there characters"

(or something like that)

"ピアプロ・キャラクター・ライセンスについて"

"About the Piapro Character License"

just ctrl+F how many times the word Character appears there (or wait, I'll do it for you: link)

As for AHS:

http://www.ah-soft.com/vocaloid/yukari/charactor_guide.html

キャラクター使用ガイドライン

"Character use guidelines"

link

Just wait until I find license for Internet Co. in JP

Face it Angel, you are wrong on this, they are CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS CHARACTERS KYRAKUTA KYRAKUTA KYRAKUTA KYRAKUTA KYRAKUTA KYRAKUTA KYRAKUTA KYRAKUTA KYRAKUTA KYRAKUTA KYRAKUTA KYRAKUTA キャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクターキャラクター

Also Miku is virtual idol in Japan idolidolidol not an instrumentalist 21 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Angel Emfrbl

Regardless, unless you take this to the forum, I see you getting no where as this isn't the place to decide an entire wikia as there won't be everyone coming to this page for this sort of thing.

I stick by what we were advised to go with a few years back, I'd speak with Damesukekun and learn more about why we choose it.

Its not too much of a loss to change it, it just feels like its not really going to impact much and amounts to changing the "water" to "H2O". 20 days ago by Angel Emfrbl delete edit

Kimi 2.0

Yes, i'm sure you had a real brainstorm over this issue "a few years back" and it wasn't just someone randomly choosing the word mascot, the end.

And no, it's not like water and H2O, or else you wouldn't argue with me that "characters" is not a good word to call them (according to you) before, since water and h20 is the same thing, when clearly a "mascot" and "character" is not the same thing.

And yeah, of course. I provided you with links to English sites of Crypton and Internet that clearly refer to them as "characters". Then you took an argument out of your ass that it doesn't count since it could have been mistranslated, which is a bullshit argument, because so what, it's still official and you are not the one to decide with what word they were to go. But still, I complied and provided you with links to Japanese sites. They still use the word "character". There is not even a room for mistranslation since the word is clearly "kyarakuta" in katakana.

And yet, you still tell me that regardless of anything it won't be changed? Yeah, great, like always. Wikia is always right, wikia will defend its decisions forever even when its clearly proved wrong.

Why would this even be discussed on forums? The word mascot is wrong, by all of the companies and literally everywhere else on the internet Vocaloids are reffered to as "characters". By Crypton, by Internet, by 1st Place by AHS, by every company. I don't know what's Damesukekun's stance on it, but regardless I would go with what official sources tell me. 20 days ago by Kimi 2.0 delete edit

Kimi2.0

^Yeah, that was me, different pc derp. 20 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit

Angel Emfrbl

Reading the sources either way, offuicial or not I see no point why we shoudl change it. We interuse words like 'mascot' and 'character' where needed... For all this 6 days of wasted time you still 'don't get it' why we use 'mascot' instead of 'character'...

I'll just end this here.

You are unwilling to try and bring up an official forum topic so its not like anything from this last 6 days can be taken as serious, if it was related to the page here just it would be... The whole wikia? That seriously needs to go to the forum.

Either way, why change it, seriously having the freedom to choose what word is approipricate where needed is more better then using 'character' over all others. The official sources I see don't say "the vocaloid wikia MUST use 'mascot'" nor that the use of 'mascot' or 'avatar' is incorrect.

Oh whats the use... If you don't get what I'm saying at this point I'm sure your never going to get it. *rolls eyes*. I'm tired of wasting time on this Kim, the others gave up on you a few days ago, I thought I could try and have one last go and explain this but now even I give up... 20 days ago by Angel Emfrbl delete edit

Kimi2.0

"Others" ? Stop talking for anyone else here and making a victim out of yourself, it's seriously annoying.

I'm not going to bring this anywhere because it's not going to change anything, you already decided you are right here.

Are you even listening to yourself? "So what the official sources say that". Well, they are official sources, and wikia is supposed to be a source of information. You can call them mascots or whatever, I don't care, but don't use this words in articles because it's inappropriate, for fuck's sake.

I'm beginning to understand why are some people so damn annoyed with certain Vocaloid names not being capitalized where they should. 20 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit

Bunai82

This is still a thing? (´・ω・`) 17 days ago by Bunai82 delete edit

Bunai82

I don't have an issue changing things from Mascot to Character if the official companies use the term more so Angel Emfrbl.

However, mascot in this case is referring to the avatar / illustration that gives face or promotes a product. There is no direct definition for the word mascot, it is the term that is explained and what is popularized to what we know it today and that is usually about sports mascots. It is not derogatory lol

And the way companies like Crypton, ZeroG and PowerFX use the term "Character" is when they are describing a "Vocal description / quirk" not the product's Avatar. So it is like: "this voice bank has some life to it, it is pretty unique for such-n-such reasons" etc. I've seen fans referring to the VOCALOID avatars as a characters out of simplicity and given that people want to associate 'anime-like things with anime'.

Yeah, again. If it will satisfy the audience and match up with the officials, then just change it. Don't turn it into a life or death decision. 12 days ago by Bunai82 delete edit

71.255.32.131

I'mma jump into this mess.

Mascot actually fits very well because the illustrations on the box represent the voice, much like how a sports team has a mascot to represent a sports team. This doesn't mean a mascot is only restricted to sports team, because there are many other implications of mascots, those just happen to be some of the most obvious. Though, you are wrong when you said that mascots are the people that run around in football games, those are people in mascot costumes. They costumes of the mascot not the actual mascot, kind of like how a cosplay is in a costume of the character but isn't that character.

Character doesn't fit as well because it implies more than just the image on the box you buy. It implies a personality, a back story, depth, ambitions, fears, and other things that make up someone you'd see in a story. Most Vocaloids are missing all of those, so character doesn't exactly fit them. Yeah they have some things, but there's not enough to write a story about them without making something’s up. That's why it doesn't fit them, you can write a story about a character without having to make up things about them.

Of course there are some exceptions where some Vocaloids have actual characters, but there aren't enough were they should all be called characters.

Also, Japanese people tend to personify human based objects (which is why they sometimes refer to Vocaloids as actual human beings) so I don't think it's very reliable to use them as a reference. Not saying they're bad or anything, just the cultural difference makes them kind of irrelevant in this debate.

There is more to a Vocaloid than it's mascot and it's voicebank. That's when you just call it a Vocaloid, because there's no other word to refer to it in English.

9 days ago by 71.255.32.131 delete edit

Kimi2.0

^I don't agree with you at all, but I don't feel like typing a wall of text again or repeating myself... 9 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit

85.138.48.214

I usually just called them 'drawings' to refer to the avatars specifically but okay XD

(And, I'm out) 8 days ago by 85.138.48.214 delete edit

Kimi2.0

Right..since apparently people just won't let this thread die anyway, I guess I can respond to you, Anon 71.255.32.131 But to make it clear, this is just for pointless debate purposes

>Mascot actually fits very well because the illustrations on the box represent the voice

Actually it doesn't, because the illustration on the box is a character the voice belongs to and not a representation of anything

>about you lecturing me what is a mascot

-Obviously I'm aware the plush toys that run over the game field have people inside them that only cosplay the mascot in question, I'm not sure what were you trying to imply here.

-You can read up the definition of the word "mascot" on the internet. It doesn't fit what Vocaloids are whatsoever.

-in a metaphorical sense, you could say that, say, Miku is a mascot of Crypton, because they use her for promotion purposes the most and she sure as hell brings them good luck, but that's all there is to it. Metaphorical sense.

>about why you think the word "character" doesn't fit

-the problem is, what you think is what you think, but just because the word means also "personality" in other context, doesn't mean it can't be used to refer something with no personality in other context

-unless you give me a dictionary definition of "character" in reference to a fictional entity that supports what you think it implies? Because for all I'm concerned, all there needs to be is a form to look at.

-this is English language's problem, not anyone else's

-And in the first place, there is plenty of Vocaloids that have canon stories, traits or other official information attached to them.

-Even if there is nothing, that doesn't necessarily means there is nothing. Every time a Vocaloid stars in a song, a novel, a fanfiction or a doujin, they are characters of that story. Even if it's just a piece of fanart. Even if it's just in your head. They are characters from default. The only difference from a regular characters from any other media is that in their case, some of them are just blank pages.

-The way Vocaloids are designed, is to give you an impression of an anime character singing for you. Whether to this character a personality is attached or you are given the freedom to attach it yourself according to your liking, doesn't change anything about the concept in essence.

>about you saying what companies say are irrelevant because they are Japanese.

-Obviously I'm aware in Japan, things especially things of human form are treated with more importance that they would be in the west.

-Guess what? I agree with that mindset in 100%

-The concept of Vocaloids being idols or the concept of virtual idols altogether is not a western concept (or if it by some miraculous chance that I'm not aware is, then it's definitely Japan where the concept came to life). The first Vocaloids that were given human form to go with their voice were Japanese. The Vocaloids in question here are also Japanese. So why would it be irrelevant in this debate how they are treated in Japan, when we are debating Japanese content in the first place, not western content?

No matter how you look at this, all of this is nothing more than arguing different points of view. But still the fact remains, the word "mascot" doesn't apply here aside of a metaphorical sense (if you choose to look at things that way), the word "character" is a more neutral word in this case and it is the word that is also used by the companies to refer to Vocaloids aka their very own creations. It's also used by the fandom in general, and also the word commonly used by people to refer to any drawn entity, even ones not used in any story at all (ever heard the term "OC"? ). It's also in line with the concept Vocaloids were created to be treated as, whereas "mascot" is not.

tl;dr I respect your opinion, but that's all it is, an opinion. 7 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Bunai82

But it's too fun to let die. 7 days ago by Bunai82 delete edit

71.255.32.131

You are right this is mostly opinion based. Though, isn't that what most debates are?

The exact definition might match completely but a lot of words in English aren't use in that way. Like how epic is used to describe something as awesome or of grander when it's definition is a long heroic poem. I know some say that it’s being used incorrectly, but I don’t think it is because it makes sense where the new usage is coming from. With epic the poems were often of awesome tales of great proportion, and with mascot it’s a symbol to represent an event or organization so it’s not crazy to use it as an image that represents the voice. And I do mean represents the voice, because the voice is not exclusive to the design. That’s why it’s not wrong to use the voice for character completely unrelated, like Oliver with Puppycat or the character a producer might create for a song.

I’ll admit mascot is a bit of stretch but I feel character is an even bigger one. Yes character does mean personality but I fail to see how it can mean something with no personality in others. Since it’s referring to behavior and personality I would say the definition of a fiction entity that’s a character would be “a role with character” or “a role with personality” because that is how it’s used in most cases. These makes sense to me because every other usage of the word character deals with personality, and I don’t see how it makes sense to describe something that has no personality (fictional or real) as a character.

What I was trying to convey with that whole “can’t tell a story with them without making stuff up” is that there’s nothing set. Say you were to write a story about Mario and Peach, you can get a sense of their personality and then extrapolate it into a situation you create having them react in character. This is because they have some things already set about how they behave and think, but once you step out of those set details they become out of character and are a different version of the original Mario and Peach. That’s why you can’t do this to a Vocaloid; they are always “out of character” because they have almost nothing set about them. Maybe they have their measurements and a small description that’s cannon but that’s not enough to make a character. Miku may be "an android diva in the near-future world where songs are lost”, 16 years old, 5'2" tall, and weigh 92.4 lbs but does that say anything about personality? Is she optimistic, pessimistic, lazy, athletic, studious, edgy, or depressed? It’s all up to the individual to choose that and the only aspects of a personality she’ll get is what you give her. And whatever you give her isn’t set so technically it’s “out of character” because you aren’t extrapolating from what’s set you’re making stuff up. Meaning when you characterize a Vocaloid they aren’t exactly what they were originally, they are a design you made into a character. It would be the same thing if someone drew a person and you came up with a character based off of that drawing. The drawing itself isn’t a character, but what you came up with is. OC’s are a bit different because whatever you want to be cannon about your own character is cannon, it’s all yours so you control everything that’s cannon about it. If the OC has no personality, then it’s just a character design. Not an actual character but a design for one (kind of the images for Vocaloids).

I assumed where debating about all Vocaloids in general. That’s why I thought dismissing Japanese phrasing was for the best because of cultural differences. I agree that some Vocaloids can and should be called characters, for example Luo Tianyi having anime makes her more than just a design so she is a character. Just like the too Vocaloids from Project 575, but not all Vocaloids are. Not all are meant to seem like anime characters that sing for you either; I mean that was kind of the whole point of the VY series.

Quick Summary

Words aren’t always used exactly as their definition says, but to still use it correctly it needs to hold some connection to the original. Mascot isn’t the best word but it’s a bit better than character because character refers to personality in one way or another. Vocaloids generally have no set personality so anything you give them is in a way wrong because it’s “out of character”. Yeah there are some exceptions which should be called characters, but mascot is the one of the better blanket term there is to fit all Vocaloids. 4 days ago by 71.255.32.131 delete edit

Kimi2.0

You are still basing your entire point about the fact that the the word "character" means a personality in a different context, while completely disregarding the fact that it's also a word used to refer to any drawn entity in the context we are talking about and that no, it doesn't have to do anything with personality. This is not at all similiar to the case of the word "epic". People say something was "epic" only as a slang term, while people say for example things like "the character on the photo is..", "this is the design of a black haired character I did" on a daily basis, without taking into account whether the persona in question that they talk about has any personality or not.

You are still just commenting about your own interpretation of the word and about how you see V-loids. You still use the "cultural difference" as an argument when I explained that the way I see it, you are arguing about something that originated from another culture so you should rather disregard your own culture here. For me a design someone makes into a character is still a character. Hell, a design itself is already a character. And who says a character needs a consistent, already pre-determined personality to be a character?

I have nothing new to say here really, I adressed everything you said in my previous post.

>Not all are meant to seem like anime characters that sing for you either; I mean that was kind of the whole point of the VY series.

Obviously I only meant the Vocaloids that actually are also characters, not avatarless ones like Leon, Lola or VY series.

Basically, the only Vocaloid I would agree the word mascot could apply to AS WELL is Akikoloid, because she is based on an actual mascot of a store chain. Other than that, it's a pure bullshit.

Besides, you said yourself, that maybe the word mascot is not the best word to use either. Even if you believe that a character needs personality to be considered a character, "character" is still the word people commonly use to refer even to characters with no personality stated. No one would take a second guess at someone calling a Vocaloid "character", whereas calling them "mascots" clearly stirrs up mixed feelings in people. It just makes no sense to not use a clearly more neutral word that even creators themselves use for their "children". 4 days ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history

Plantmageskelly

Both of you stop. Mascot, character, avatar, it doesn't matter! Vocaloids can be anything you want, that's what makes them great! So what if it's a mascot? So what if it's not? The software of Vocaloid is made of pure magic, and so are all of the mascots and characters and avatars and all that! Stop arguing! Stop trying to argue something when you're BOTH right! The whole point of Vocaloid is that they're powered by your imagination. And whenever people argue over something they should be rejoicing over, it severly cripples the imagination. You both like Voclaoid! You both love the music, the sound, the art, the nature of the medium! So please, just get along? The Vocaloid fandom is one of the most volatile and hostile fandoms ever, so we need to make sure we don't tip the boat, okay? :D We all share the same common interest, and the same common love for this software that became something much more. And when I see people arguing over things like the names, or the voice, or the art, or the little details... it makes me very, very sad. Vocaloid has been a constant in my life for a very long time, and it means alot to all of us. So please, stop and think. And then you realize that the great thing about being a Vocaloid fan is that everyone's your friend :D 1 day ago by Plantmageskelly delete edit

Angel Emfrbl

I thought this was over and done with... =_=

I got fed up with arguing with Kim because what I see as not worth changing Kim disagrees otherwise on.

We had 3 weeks of arguing, the only way I saw to end it was just not to speak about it because it was getting pathetic and was pulling me away from other wikia editor duties and my usual daily checks.

Its best everyone walks away, if anything this should have been on the forum... 12 hours ago by Angel Emfrbl delete edit

Bunai82

I'm going to archive it for the lawls. 2 hours ago by Bunai82 delete edit

Kimi2.0

It sure is pathetic when someone is proved wrong and still to stubborn to change their mind.

Normally I wouldn't argue about stupid shit like this but yes, it becomes a problem when your flawed interpretation have influence on the whole wikia and attacks people from its very front page when it should be interpretation free place.

And I'm happy you are having fun, Bunai. At least one positive thing to come out of this fruitless discussion. 37 minutes ago by Kimi2.0 delete edit history