Talk:Kagamine Rin & Len/@comment-9085892-20190224133825/@comment-53539-20190225125746

''What is frustrating, though, is that... c'mon people, it's 2019 already. There are some things we should have left behind long ago. Which one is the best vocaloid? Are the Kagamines a couple or siblings? Those kind of things we should have left long ago in a garbage can.''

http://vocaloid.answers.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Information_about_VOCALOID_relationships

Read this... I added one particular paragraph which sums up what happened when I went looking to link all the relationships to one page at the answers wiki. Your not alone. Pretty much most of the questions asked about relationships was on the Big 8, but the Kagamines... Je Gaz! They were asked the most. And even as late as 2018. I created that 1 page to just link all relationships into one page because when I was looking up the questions asked, I noticed there was no uniformed answer and sometimes people gave cheap or half-answered questions. So that page was meant to answer everything.

There has been every variation on their relationship question asked and their over 10 years old. I do wish people would think that that possibly, just maybe, the questions been answered by now.

''Recognizing technical flaws in the voicebank is not insulting them, it's just accepting the facts. I'm a huge Kagamine fan, but I know how much people struggled to make decent songs with them in those early V2 years. Thanks to their popularity, this voicebank has been pushed to its limits. Some producers are known for using the ACT 1 VB and it's such a struggle that they let others know that they have used that VB specifically. So, yes, you can keep being a fan of a technically flawed VB, enjoying some amazing tuning talent. ''

The Act1 was a mess. Act2 wasn't *that* much better. Len is the least realistic vocal by default among the CFM lot and second least realistic among the Vocaloids, second to Ryuto. While we have difficulty placing the ranks of realism among Vocaloids for various reasons, anyone whose vocal doesn't reflect the gender their portraying is considered an automatic unrealistic vocal by Yamaha.

Hence why they only referenced male vocals by males for VY2. There was a reason for this, biology and its left its mark on VOCALOID when it comes to then confronting vocals like Iroha. I literally struggled to find a term to fit her in that suited her because of the status with her provider. But after it began to emerge issues also with voice acting versus realistic portrayals, it all has become messy.

Even if they improve the quality, Len will always be held back by the fact he is actually a female vocal, not a male.

I remember we had a spout of pro-Len or Kagamine fans just saying "Len is the best vocaloid in my opinion". We did point out how he wasn't or the Kagamine's were among the technical worst vocals prior to V4. But I responded, and usually do now with "it shouldn't matter, if you truly love the vocal you love it despite the flaws". Being bad shouldn't put you off. There are people who like Sonika and we know how bad her vocal is.

''No Vocaloid is better than other. Unless both voicebanks are trying to fill the same niche, I find it difficult to just find the better VB. Think about this: Miku's VB is softer, while Rin's VB is powerful. Miku can sound cuter, hence most of her popular songs are cute. Most of the popular Rin songs are rock songs, accompanied with some heavy guitar tones. As I said once, you just can't expect Oliver to sing death metal (unless you have some amazing editing capabilities). ''

Yes, but there are vocals that are clearly more higher quality then others. This impacts things when we consider what "the best" vocaloid is. The issue with quality becomes apparent when you go to edit a vocal, LQ vocals have issues with collapsing vocals, especially in V2 where all but Iroha, the VYs and the Appends had this issue, with Luka V2 being the border between MQ and HQ as she was the start of when we started seeing HQ vocals.

The difference between LQ and HQ in V2 in particular in that engine was notable. V2 was the era in which this stood out like a rock and while Miku was able to compete with later vocals because she easily morphed to sound like another vocal, she even lost that to Miki in 2009. Yet the only reason miki wasn't a insult hit and took over Miku, was simply miki was harder to use despite being MQ (I believe she is counted as MQ). The V2 era is the most clean-cut era with its quality issues and since then its become much harder to judge Vocaloids. In V4 I think Nana and a few others are the only ones countered as "HQ" overall.

The main issue I find with quality has nothing to do with technical issues. When it came out that the VY series was the best V2 had to offer, it was at times the only reason people focused on them. They didn't focus on anything else, it was similar to how Roro got mistaken or used constantly for VY2 when he wasn't official. People just clung onto 1 or 2 traits of the Vocaloids and ignored the rest. Another one off the top of my head is the Zola boys. They see "3 male vocals in a box that are HQ" and not "3 male vocals with specific roles and limited vocal ranges".

There is a constant issue particularly here in the west of people generally missing the point, that they focus on the wrong things or ignore details. I remember on Twitter someone saying tempo and vocal ranges are "just a guide", I replied that their actually the "best range" and are basically telling you what the Vocaloid can or can't do. IF you venture out of the ranges even the HQ vocaloid is going to suffer if you don't know what your doing at all.

And this comes to the crunch, yeah sure, there are differences between Vocaloids and no 1 claims "the best" while quality does clean cut differences and so fourth... IF you don't know how to use a Vocaloid, then you will never hear the Vocaloid sing at its best. Most producers here in the west, or at least fans buying a Vocaloid (particularly the "weaboo" producers who only buy their fav. vocaloids releases) don't know how to fully use their Vocaloids and we often see fans who are none the wiser either reward them. You can't change this culture and it won't. America in particular can buy up to half of all Vocaloid sales in total so it says a lot.

To me the "best" vocaloid would be one that sounds realistic to a fault, who can do every language, genre of music, tempo, etc. Its... An impossible Vocaloid. But we do have much clearer understanding of what are some of the worst Vocaloids and sadly... The Kagamines Act 1 is among them. Again that shouldn't change a thing and honestly...? As I said, people don't always know how bad they are here in the west so I don't think it matters. Their V4x is "fine", just the weakest of the 3 V4xs. Their English needs a lot of work, particularly Len's.