Talk:Flower/@comment-53539-20190101135810/@comment-53539-20190123135054

A lot of the Ghost fans for some reason also seem to be "Flower is Trans fans" thats all, I don't know why, but there seems to be some relation I can't explain. Its like how Daughter of Evil and its series is behind "Len dies a lot" songs pretty much. Its nothing to do with Ghost and while it did exist before them, its gotten to stupid levels since Ghost made a few popular songs. It seems not to stem from Ghost themselves but from comments in youtube and people generally reacting now they know Flower. Ghost is literally not the cause, they just brought the fandom to one place and ideas flowed. Its sad because Ghost is not at fault, its the fandom itself. All it takes is one person who refuses to see Flower as a female and to write it in the comments, get support and the idea spreads to many others. As I note, as a fandom we can be uncreative. The other issue is not many are using Flower besides Ghost and getting that much success so the focus is in all one place. The comments for Ghost got turned off in the end for Ghost had reasons, but all that did was then shift it to places like DA. With the fact SJW want to look good and support it, or LGBT want to be represented, that opens the gate for issues like Flower just being accepted as a normal female. Its the same as some members of the community didn't feel like they were represented as there was no black Vocaloids, there was, but they didn't know at the time Leon and Lola were black singers. And since they didn't have avatars...

The thing is, we're never going to have perfect representation of everyone in Vocaloid. As I said once a few years back on VO, the studios will most likely cater for the majority trying to get the most money in. Niche Vocaloids like Prima and Sachiko are a real risk when you have money on the line. I've seen people complain over the years about the lack of LGBT on TV programs, but even I pointed this out then. But when you point this out, they just say "how are we going to get fair representation if nobody represents us". Its true, but often when they do you get a guy thats just a stereotype... So it doesn't represent anyone in the end, just some guys ideas on what a stereotype is.

Funny enough as UTAU exist that comply with LGBT, I would not be even bothered, we went through this with Merli being the "First dark skinned" and we'll go through with it in the future with every new Vocaloid. And to be fair, I saw the stubbornness to accept SeeU was pretty much a clone of Miku and over time its all but been said (again one of the concept arts for her is identical to Miku V2's pose, they knew what they were aiming for). Bare in mind, one of my favourite Vocaloids was Iroha whose provider brings this whole issues into question. We've had arguments over her too. Like "the provider identifies as female therefore Iroha is female" and it gets messy to understand. The trouble I find is when you discuss this, you get a lot of reactions. Oddly not from the LGBT crowd but most of the time from the SJW crowd who seem to get more offended then anyone else. I still get bitter about the time I just asked for a specific classification for her vocal because it wasn't a normal female vocal and I needed a special category to write in her voicebank to note that. I found it, with no help in the end from everyone else who'd rather scream at me over the issue. So if Flower was revealed to have been voiced by a male, at least we've been through this with Iroha. I'm indifferent on Flower. :-?

A lot of the issue is biological and some of this transfers into Vocaloid whether or not we like it and it becomes something you have to accept. I mean I saw reactions on Vocaloid Otaku forums when I wrote about Yamaha dismissing non-male voiced males in the production of VY2. But this was because certain masculine traits are found in a male vocal and not in the female. So Len could not provide a proper male vocal. ITs to do with the size of the male voice box, the timbre of the voice, the range and deepness, as well as muscles in the chest and throat. Its like the only way also to get a authentic child vocal is... Well... To use a child. There is no difference. Once you understand that, there isn't an issue at all. In Flower's case I could honestly imagine her provider being either male or female so it doesn't bother me at all. Flower is female the same as Iroha. Provider is one thing and only contributes to the vocal, the Vocaloid is unaffected by that.

Aye some respect DoE's main problem is the elder songs in the series are flawed. I'd argue about the quality of the newer ones but their generally better. A lot of the problem with the older ones is minor issues like mixing mistakes and using V2 vocals or Act1 Kagamines with the flaws being bound to the voicebank not ness. entirely the song. IT is frustrating they get held in high regards ad the later ones are less known, but they are quite overhyped in terms of the older ones that came first. The fandom also has several of them in its list of "all of the 50+ Vocaloid songs I only know" category, if you get what I mean.

I just found them extremely boring at times and some early songs repetitive in their tune. I don't know if they were intended to be a series originally, but some of the early ones felt they were meant to be one-offs and that the producer only made a series when they got popular. But I speak from ignorance on the matter here as I'm not really a fan. I say in regards to them, I know the story and I know the songs, I know a lot from reading the wiki page. But I'm ignorant as a while about whats so great about them. I would not be able to pick apart them one by one and unlike Circus Monster I simply cannot imagine a better version of the songs as my speaking Japanese isn't that good at all, so writing music to match lyrics would be impossible. So it does frustrate me that I can't "tell" people what I think would improve one or two of them.

There isn't much to say about them, listening to them a few times and wondering why they are popular falls pretty much into some things I learnt when I was in the Beyblade fandom. As teenagers and female a number of our community ound ourselves being rather open to certain Beybladers getting hurt. Including the fall of Kai in the 3rd season as he was one of our favourites. One of us called it "the mother instinct" and to me... When Len "dies" in DoE's series it kinda is like that. It pulls on the strings of the heart and females in particular tend to be attracted to the young, cute boy types. So when Len dies, a lot of teenager girls feel sorry for him and since a lot of his fans are female... Well... It kinda explains a lot. Not saying every fan of DoE is female, but you see certain patterns after a while.

Since half the fandom is in the other boat though, being either not caring about Len/Kagamines, often male, veterans who've moved on, or just not fans of the series, its understandable. While our veterans have matured, our fans coming in are always greater in numbers then those who are becoming veterans and learning their thing (this varies per fan, as you can be in this fandom for 4 years and not know things thus be stuck in the "just past a noob" moment), it kinda explains a lot of this too. We can't snip the flow of newbies and young fans coming in and to be frank that is dangerous and not worth it, since we will depend on them to keep the fandom going in the future. You have to imagine in 10 years time the likes of some of us veterans not being around and leaving this wiki to be taken over by the next generation. Thus, you can't afford to make any mistakes like that as that noobie and clueless fan you see today may be the all-knowing veteran tomorrow in your position. I can only hope by then DoE is seen as not much of a big deal, but there are issues with our fandom going forward.