Talk:Kagamine Rin & Len/@comment-35532896-20181021100238/@comment-53539-20181021233932

I would disagree, the biggest issue with Len (who I presume you're referring to) is he isn't that good. Quality wise the Kagamines have always been problematic, but in terms of realism Len is also the least realistic of the CFM Vocaloids, as well. So he gets hit with the biggest double whammy, being a part of a pair with a bad reputation from their original release an being the least realistic of the 4 CV series vocals.

We've kinda discussed this to death though before and it tends to be raised whenever someone says this. The problem is though the V2 Append was HQ, the Act1 vocals were LQ and Act2 were also LQ. Luka is basically the best of the pre-Append vocals, while the Appends themselves are among the best of V2. But their not the Act1 or Act2 vocals. Long story short, CFM rushed them out in 2 months, which is the same length of time they gave to Miku. Except there were two vocals this time and as Power types the V2 software didn't handle them particularly well. Its an issue with V2, V3 allowed more room for Power Types, hence why we got Meiko Power which had too many Kagamine-like traits in V2. Whaever the case maybe, even in V4x their kinda the weakest package when your talking about the V4 engine itself. V5 it was Luka V4x because Piapro Studio had problems with V5... No idea if they've fixed it yet, haven't checked myself. But the issue was no matter what you did they both had about 1/6 or 1/7 the potential variation alone against Miku or Luka and together 1/3 the potential. It was related to the 50-50 divide of the vocals. And English Len has the issue that can plague Len of sounding like a female. There is a note that Len's vocal may have been another Copy and Paste cheat like Luka Soft was in V4x, but I never saw the outcome of someone talking about that as VO forums were retired. There was also a issue raised on how "Luka-like" some English samples were and one theory that was criticised was Luka's samples may have been used either as a template or as fill-ins for English sounds. We'll likely never know this one.

Basically, at one stage prior to V4x, if you said "Len is the best Vocaloid!" at places like VO forums, you'd have been laughed at. We just respond with the reality, but we don't mock people over it. In my opinion itself of you know something is faulty but you love it anyway your a better fan then someone who can't accept flaws in something. At the end of the day you as a fan should be able to nerd-talk about Len so knowing weaknesses is part of learning about him. Sometimes learning about weaknesses is for a benefit as you can learn to counter points.

Even now, in terms of the stack... Len is still at the bottom of the stack in terms of how good Vocaloids are from CFM because of the various issues. Even if we're talking not about voicebanks, the fact he is voice acted by a female and not a 14 year old boy (which is not going to happen due to puberty basically breaking a boy's voicebank) he can't ever be the most realistic of the CFM vocaloids. He is usually considered the worst of him and Rin anyway naturally due to her sounding overall better and as a Power type... Vocaloid still can have issues with that typing though things are better. So if we ignore the technical problems with the voicebanks, as you can see there are still problems with Len.

Unfortunately, the single biggest issue with the Kagamines is Len can't sound like Rin and Rin can't sound like Len. So going forward from their Act1 vocals has had this ever lasting issue as I mentioned... They always suffer. Len and Rin basically end up being half the potential even without XSY over Miku and Luka just because their 50-50 split. So you don't gain much from buying a two-Vocaloid package at times. They would only beat Luka if EVEC was taken away as Luka's V4x without EVEC is pathetic at times as its got only 3 voicebanks in it that have been duplicated to make 6... Perhaps only 2. CFM have been known to take short cuts, but we never known the extent fully of it and a lot of studios cheat. Its considered not a big deal. Definately the worst is the English version... CFM could have done much, much better with that but CFM have only set out to create Standard decks, they aren't trying to out compete natives because you can't when you don't use native speakers/singers.

Kagamine fans ha e a reputation because they drive other fans wild constantly bringing up things like "what is your relationship opinion...." and it can get boring. There is basically only 3 conversations people have, you displayed a second which is "Len is better", but this is one we get with Miku so its not a big deal. A lot of the issues is people have been discussing these same 3 topics (brains dead can't think of the 3rd) since 2008, basically a decade. So normally, people can be quite rude. I'm not I just note things here as a fan create issues with your problem with believing Len is the best. But... Miku at the best either and yet is the most popular... So what is the value of being "the best"? The better Vocaloids don't always sell enough.

Either way, its all a sad reality Kagamine fans and quite frank... I think Luka fans are much worst then the Kagamine fans. I mean if we're talking blindness to weaknesses, Luka fans often panic if she ain't in the top 10 charts for sales or refuse to accept there are aspects of V4x that are a waste of investment or are LQ/rubbish. At least with the Kagamines, even many Kagamines fans accept they've not always been the best releases, which make the Kagamine fans slightly more humbler even if the whole relationship stuff is irritating.