Vocaloid Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive 1

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Spicing up the this Wiki
I feel as though this wiki could be improved immensly considering the popularity of vocaloids. At present it appears to be little more than an outlet for indivduals with ideas of fan made vocaloids. I follow the Vocaloids to some extent on both Youtube and Nico Video and the Wiki doesn't really compliment them, nor the artists and musicians that make it all possible. So i'd like to propose some changes.

1) Producers and artists. Without the talent of the producers and artists there wouldn't be any vocaloid songs. There needs to be more pages devoted to them and their work. There are pages scattered around on them, but most if not all are orphaned pages made by one user with sparse infomation and each has links to their own youtube channel and nothing else. I admire the effort they've put in but it's not really in the spirit of Wiki, which stands for unbiased facts and quality. These pages can be greatly expanded upon with video details, links to the original videos on Nico and good quality youtube reprints. More info on the producers, what songs they have worked on, their history and many other aspects can be expanded upon.

2) Weekly Vocaloid Rankings. A very important part of the vocaloid scene but the page seems to be left to gather dust. Ommision of all the un-used rankings and a rethink of the structure is needed. A carbon copy of the rankings in text form is obviously not needed nor wanted. What would suit the rankings best? Text listing of 30-11 and descriptions of the the top 10? Only include the top 3/5/10? List format or description? Nico link to indivdual videos?

3) Fanmade Vocaloids. I'd say a good 80% of the vocaloids on this page i had never even heard of before coming to this Wiki. On more than half of them theres no refferences to outside material be it artistic or musical and often there is only a thumbnail of the character with a small personality/relationship description. I'd like to put this into discussion: What exacly makes a fanmade vocaloid, and furthermore, what level of community or indivdual creative development is needed to warrent a place in this Wiki? Is it a stick-man going 'laaa', or a fully fleshed all singing all dancing vocaloid with the approval of crypton or other Vocaloid2 licenceors? I give extreme examples but right now there is just about everything inbetween on this page and it could do with trimming.

The structure could certainly be more streamlined. Catagorising them by name would only work if there were a dozen or so but there are clearly more than the current layout can handle. What i'd like to propose: consoldating all offically recognised fanmade vocaloids (Akita, Hachune and Yowane) under 1 heading, giving a brief summary of their origins and linking to their main page in the wiki. Specific groups should have enough info to warrent their own pages, such as the Heavy Metal versions of the vocaloids (Hagane group) and the Rainbow vocaloids and then hopefully be expanded upon there, detailing their own songs, info about their creators etc. much like the current main vocaloid characters pages.

After this, the vocaloids should be catagorised into singing and non-singing, further subcatagorised into the vocaloids they are based off of (there should be far fewer with some trimming and the groups have been moved to their own pages). I don't feel Iku Acme and Nana Macne belong in this section as they are completly seperate from the vocaloids, and even more so from the fanbased ones. Perhaps a merge into Related programs?

4) Standardising song listings and their derivatives. Listing and describing each and every song created by vocaloids would be a never ending task, but if the Wiki is to be comprehensive in its use more infomation should be present on all songs and their derivatives. As an example, take Kagamine Rin's Kokoro. The only song listed on her [and her brothers] main page should be the original Kokoro produced by relevent musicians and artists complete with a link to Nico video and a high quality reprint on Youtube. The current style is great and i beleive should be kept the same. There should also be a link to the songs main page.

A carbon copy of the details provided on the vocaloid page should be made available on this page and clearly labelled as the original. After this, alterantives to the original song should be listed in the same manner, including a description (if needed) along with details of musicians, producers, artists and vocalists (for fandubs) and finally a link to Nico video and Youtube. Derivative's should include the various PV's, Fan dubs (Japanese, English or otherwise), off vocal tracks and variations done with other vocaloids. This should be the page which connects all the producers, musicians and artists together.

Collaberations between various vocaloids (inclding singing fan-based vocaloids) should be filed under a seperate page detailing the various original works if more than one vocaloid is singing (the Kagamines would be exempt from this rule of course) and would then follow the same tree branching of the normal vocaloid songs.

The overall goal of all this is to create a deep, profound source of infomation on almost anything related to the vocaloids, with the prime focus being on the original vocaloids and their songs. --Kaiseine 17:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The "Producers and artists" were recently created, so I don't know the the intention of those pages so far. I mostly prefer third party sources used on them used yet they do not exist.


 * "Weekly Vocaloid Rankings'''" is dead, it hasn't been worked on a long time, basically the person who created it gave up.


 * "Fanmade Vocaloids" is the most baised page and for some reason more users are adding just because they can and their art is not even popular ever since the top page encourages them to do so. Most of these emerge from DevianArt.  I normally try avoid editing that page to avoid removing legitimate a character since I never heard of then, again probably aren't even notable.


 * "Standardising song listings and their derivatives": It can be done, the problem is the copies on YouTube are a copyright violation and violates Terms of Service (of YouTube). Unfortunately NicoNico requires registration and not every one can register.


 * If you really want to change the pages, just do so and be bold and edit them, either way most of those pages need to be re-written. Just re-write as you see fit and use the talkpage of the article to discuss the changes that should be made and the ones you made.  That way the editors know why it was changed and they can discuss the problems of the article you alerted them in.   Antonio Lopez  (talk) 16:07, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

As for "Producer" articles, I wrote all past pages. Before I began to write, there were no articles of the producer informations in this Wiki at all. On the contrary, there are NOT the producer informations written in English to the large amount elsewhere besides my YT channel. Antonio Lopez-san, I understand what you want to say. However, we must increase many producers' informations articles as possible as we can do now immediately. Therefore I chose the simplest method. The simplest method is the copy from my YT channel. Of course, I don't mind who fill up more each articles. The links (to Nico and YT) of each individual song will be necessary in the future. However, at least I have no time to do so now. In Japanese "Hatsune Miku Wiki", there are more than 500 articles of producers and more than 4000 articles of songs. Compared to that, the information amount of this Vocaloid Wiki is equal to ZERO. Immediately we must increase articles of producers and songs by translating from Japanese origin to English.

As for "Fanmade Vocaloids", I want to offer the following new rules.


 * 1) It must be a character whose multiple videos have been produced by multiple producers and have been uploaded to Nico or YouTube actually. And the videos must be made by using actually the Vocaloid software by their producers.
 * 2) If the characters (which meet the above criteria) have a video (in which the character appears mainly) which got more than 100,000 view counts in Nico or YouTube, we give an individual article page to the characters.
 * 3) As for the characters which do not have enough view counts, all are listed in one page. In addition, the characters which do not meet the 1st criteria are not mentioned. If there are already mentioned characters which do not meet the criteria, they will be deleted.

I thought these rules in order to prevent it from placing personal "fanmade Vocaloids" (or characters having no concrete song video). --Ymiyass900 04:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You have a point there, I will expand my comment later in a few hours since I need rest for now. I really don't see a problem with the producers section I just wanted to see more external links on the subject.   Antonio Lopez  (talk) 04:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't need to expand my above comment, since there is no problem, then again the was never a problem with the pages.  Antonio Lopez  (talk) 14:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Apologies Ymiuass900, i did not realise the producer pages had been created literally in the last few days. Again, my humblist apologies.


 * I agree with you on the Fanmade Vocaloids. Especially the first point. They are called VOCALoids afterall. Otherwise they'd be, umm, MUTEoids? There needs to be more creative development put into their design. I've seen one or two where all they've done is alter an entire original song by increasing or lowering the pitch. If they like it enough, they can take it further with creating proper voice alterations, original songs and videos etc. The page should not be a dump for experimental Vocaloids and left to gather dust. There are fan sites in Japanese and English supporting Fanmades, fanfiction etc. May be worth seeing if they would be interested in being linked from this Wiki. I'll get asking.


 * I'll try adopting the weekly Vocaloid rankings page and i'll gurantee to keep it updated with new rankings, but back writing all past rankings will take time and of course there will be other projects to work on in the meantime.--Kaiseine 09:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * For the reason of filtering out Vocaloids that don't perform (read: sing) or those that are abandoned, I initially made a Proposed Fanmade Vocaloids page. But yeah, there is a growing number that don't sing at all. But let's not forget or single out those that really want to promote theirs and those who actually make content. As the growing number of non-singings are growing, I'm pondering on ripping out the entire non-singing segment and reclassifying them as Vocaloid Mascots. Or Fanmade Vocaloid Mascots.


 * Suggestion 1 appears to happen only on phenomenal cases. That would render 98% of all fanmades disqualified. Suggestion 2 is good, but sometimes details (and those who make configurations) are better placed in profile pages. It keeps the pages neat and concise. Also, configurations are placed in the profile pages, and the characteristics as well, which helps in accuracy when it comes to people writing stories, making PVs, using their voices, and such. Of course, those who actually "sing" should get these pages, though there can be exceptions. As much as all other crufty fanmades should be kept out, there are some that are unenlightened who do end up redeeming themselves later. (Rena and Mime comes to mind) That should be remembered as well.


 * The Utate Mitta and Human Vocaloids should be spun off Fanmade Vocaloids as soon as possible. O Herman 11:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The Fanmade Vocaloid Mascot idea sounds great O Herman. That should keep both pages more concise. The Human Vocaloids certainly need their own page though these may be worth trawling through as well to find their legitimacy. I just picked one at random and tried to find details on her but all i found was a single image (which is used on this wiki), 2 poorly sung songs on youtube and the 'original character designer' despite being linked has no drawings or even mentions this character on their art blog. I'll spend some time this evening sorting the page ready to ship out some of the Fanmades and bring questionable Vocaloids to the discussion page so they can be defended by any fans/creators before they're cut.Kaiseine 16:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that Wiki article should be "public assets". Naturally, Wiki must mention things of public assets in first priority. In order to be recognised as "public assets", it is necessary for a fanmade character to be used by many authors and get many view counts. Therefore, I want to suggest those rules.
 * Because of those unexperienced characters, important characters are buried. Why are not there individual articles of Tako Luka and Hachune, although there are the individual articles of the unexperienced personal characters? This badness of balance is the cause that much Vocaloid fans have been disappointed at this Wiki.--Ymiyass900 03:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Most information about Miku Hachune and Tako Luka are not available due in part, to the language barrier. (Don't get me started with the translating machines, some do a really bad job.) I wanted info for others that really needs them, like Akaito and Kaiko, but these are just as hard to come by. The unexpected characters you speak of have information readily available and retrievable. For this reason, someone must go forward and put up such pages. If you can supply me with information, links and more details about Hachune and Tako Luka, I will create the pages for them. O Herman 04:25, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Aren't you a member of Vocaloidotaku.net? About Tako Luka, please read this. If you can read Japanese and have an account of Nico, please read NicoNico Encyclopedia. About Hachune, please read NicoNico Encyclopedia. It is very likely that we take the wrong way when we collect informations only from the place that is easy to take in defiance of the demand of fans. It is necessary for the article writer to collect informations from the original anytime.--Ymiyass900 05:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes I am, but I want as much information as I can get my hands on. And there may be suggestion from others too. The nicopedia thing... I'll get to work on that. O Herman


 * If there's anything to deliberate before cutting off, it should be those listed in here. There are some crazy fanmades, some that are just absurd, to ones that could be potentially funny, like Duckpoid. (The only thing bleh about duckpoid is the backstory, but the config itself and the sample is lmaotastic.) O Herman 05:16, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Another thing: What article are we going to call programs that have been influenced by Vocaloid? That section needs to be spun off, unless we give each entries (except UTAU, which already has its own) individual entries. Nana Macne is apparently gaining recognition and may soon warrant a page for herself. O Herman 10:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you feel she needs a page for herself, then go for it. A Vocaloid Inspired Software would probbably be best suited to them. Kaiseine 20:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Will Get that done. O Herman 11:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems someone has told the people over at Deviantart its ok to dump their vocaloid ideas on this Wiki. Theres been 6 different vocaloids uploaded to the Fanmade Vocaloid Mascots today alone linking to the site, 4 of which i've disabled code for. This Wiki cannot turn into a dumping ground for peoples vocaloid fan art. We've made excellent progress on the Fanmade Vocaloids page but if we're not carefull the Vocaloid Mascots will go down the same path. I'm not against people expressing their fan art and vocaloid fantasies, but catering that need is not what this site is about. I'm going to change link to Vocaloid Wiki:Proposed Fanmade Vocaloids rather than Fanmade Vocaloid Mascots. Obviously if Vocaloids relegated to this page increase in popularity and maybe even start singing, then they can easily be swaped to the other pages. Someones rough pencil sketch shouldn't be on the same page as Miku Hachune. Kaiseine 20:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Troubling as it may seem, there is indeed a thriving vocaloid-related community there. The problem is that their characters/product are sometimes too much of being unusual. Some are acceptable enough and others became notable enough that it has spawned some content of its own. (Naru Akita is one prime example of this.) But as we've seen, some are like, it came out of nowhere. Also, many of the fanmades exist for the literary side, and doesn't sing at all, though that sometimes becomes the breeding point for their song portfolios, as others picks it up and configures a voice for them. The other problem is that many of them are not established characters. O Herman 11:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm certainly not against people expressing their ideas but this site is not a place for people to showcase their own works. If somone's work becomes popular enough, someone else will write an article on it. At least, thats how i understand Wikis to work. There are 1 or 2 that do come along and are real quality fanmades: case in point being Kiki Nomorou. She's got some great fanart, has numerous songs (albiet only covers at the moment, but thats still more than what most have) and she seems to have dozens of fans that arn't all part of the creators friends list. I'm kinda hoping the Proposed Fanmade Vocaloids page will get used more so people can actually get feedback on building their work up into something better. Afterall thats what a fanmade is about, having a community build upon them and making them grow. If you just intend on using your creation for your own use and nothing more it just becomes a Vocaloid based fan work. As it stands now it's all about linking to the creators website and getting them more views/friends. I'm all for the Wiki supporting the community and developing new ideas, but neither should it be a storage centre for unloved fanmades. Kaiseine 22:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The real job now is telling those apart. Something I won't mind doing. Kiki is another of those fanmades that started out bad, but rebounded into something better. (But her author is leeching bandwidth in my imageboard.) O Herman 03:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * UPDATE: Those characters that came out of nowhere, claiming themselves as Fanmade Vocaloids but aren't based on a specific vocaloid are known as OC Vocaloids; OC being Original Characters. OCs are not exactly designed for singing, but are created as story characters or personal characters. As to why they found themselves in here is questionable at best. We now have an additional category. Rainbow Vocaloids are a prime example of these. Curiously, one of Minami's characters (of Chibi Miku-san fame) belongs here. O Herman 18:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd like to bring forward the issue of people taking out entries without reason. User:Ninayumi has been quite persistent in deleting entries without due reason while nourishing her own entry from the Voyakiloid. What do you think? O Herman 11:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This specific user is becoming a problem now. They have attempted deleting some fanmades (which O Herman reverted) and have moved around other vocaloids to different articles without reason. I think it may be time to start considering a ban on the users i.p. I've had a quick run through their history and almost all of it is either deletions, or unauthorised moves. Kaiseine 11:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

The derived characters to which its producer merely applies the sound that changed the pitch of the sound source that other persons produced (and its producer doesn't use the Vocaloid software) are mere FAKEs. Such a derived characters should be deleted from this Wiki, I think strongly. The derived characters which do not yet sing are more better than such fakes.--Ymiyass900 00:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There's such characters? Can you name them? O Herman 03:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In "Fanmade Vocaloids", these characters have only the voice which is produced by changing pitch of other sound sources ;
 * Rena Tetsune, Kiki Nomrou, Taidane Nemui, Lin & Ren Haine, Ruru Megurine, Ruki Megurine, Lukas Megurine, Keko Kasane (this comes from UTAU).
 * Those characters should be deleted, or at least they should be moved to not singing characters' article.--Ymiyass900 05:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * All right. Admittingly, Rena is too surreal, but she is supported by her creator (but I'll look into this more). Kiki... her initial samples are bad, but is she really an altered Miku that doesn't use Vocaloid? I'll observe her more. Lin and Ren hasn't made much new stuff, so I'll study that too for possible delisting. Lulu, Luki and Lucas sounds rushed in terms of creation and probably will end up being abandoned; I haven't heard of new stuff from them or in YouTube. Since Keko is a parody of Teto, she should be in UTAU wiki, I'm setting a day to clean that up since I'm producing a new song right now. Since their concepts haven't been fleshed out, they're more likely to be dumped to Proposed. Thanks for the headsup. O Herman 06:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The articles written by the creator oneself must be doubted most because it is very likely that the objectivity which is most important for Wiki is lacking at them.--Ymiyass900 13:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Kaisene caught people doing that and has interrogated their work. I'll handle the others, especially Kiki and Rena. O Herman 06:27, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

As for all of the fanmade characters which were pointed out on past day, there is not yet the presentation of the concrete works (the work which its producer of the video really produced by using Vocaloid software). Did not the writers of those articles read the instructions yet? --Ymiyass900 09:52, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The config behind Rena has explained already in the Fanmade Vocaloids talkpage, Lucas has more work (but no config.) It seems only Rena and Lucas will survive. O Herman 10:00, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Rena and Lukas have not been explained at all. There is NO presentation of the specific example of works which their producer produced by using Vocaloid software actually. --Ymiyass900 10:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If that's the case, I think you should ask for that in the Fanmade Vocaloids talkpage. I'd do that right now, but I am currently at work and can't stay long. Rena's creator, lightdasher, is present here, I suggest you also talk to him-- thus far he's the only one willing to cooperate. Also, what does one need to show to prove that they indeed produced using vocaloid? O Herman 10:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Here, have a Rena Light dasher 12:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you a creator of Rena? Don't you have Rena's VIDEO in which its author really used the Vocaloid software? Although I searched Rena's such video to keep Rena in that article, I found only fake videos in which the processed copy of the sound which other author produced was used. If there is not such video, Rena must be removed to Vocaloid Wiki:Proposed Fanmade Vocaloids or Fanmade Vocaloid Mascots. --Ymiyass900 13:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

poke


 * Last time i'm going to tell you Lightdasher, sign your posts please. Thats a good start. Now she has a proper voice all she needs is some songs. I'd also advise removing the older renditions of Rena as a mere pitch change to avoid confusion, or at least label them as experiments. I'll remove Rena from the chopping block, just be sure to get some songs out (even covers of other songs count) within a couple of months. I'd also like to commend you for your diligence in this matter, its obvious you love your vocaloid very much and want to see them grow further. The vast majority of these vocaloids are simply abandoned here on the Wiki but you've shown you really want to make something out of Rena. Work hard and you and she will go far. Kaiseine 18:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Last time? more like first time =/ Just so you know, I've edited Rena's config a little here and there :3 *dances anyway* Light dasher 19:08, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Logo
The Wiki lacks a logo right now and i've been giving it some thought inbetween getting other pages up and running. I can think of 2 immediatly obvious options; The vocaloid logo in silver metalic, or Miku Hatsune + the silver metalic vocaloid logo. Miku would be the best mascot for the Wiki because 1)S he's the most famous of the Vocaloids. 2) The colour scheme of the Wiki is based on her so she wouldn't clash with it. 3) It wouldn't be vocaloid without Miku. I was thinking of using either image, mirrored with Mikus upper body visable and the vocaloid/wiki logo in the blank space beside here. Or  image with similar effect. Anybody else have some ideas? Kaiseine 21:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually I changed the color scheme since the blue theme was to basic, I am still working on changing the skins look later on when I find a prefect background image for this wiki. I was going to make a logo, but screwed it since I was looking for free content at the time and not copyrighted so I can licence it under creative commons (Trying fair use now).  I was suggested on IRC to use a popular mascot for the logo; I was going to use Hatsune Miku, but I wanted to ask community first, I guess this is the perfect time to do so now that we are grouped together on this page for logo suggestions.  I like your silver metallic suggestion, I can probably make the wiki's background a little more grey or something similar.  Maybe when can use File:Program_mikukiss.jpg for the background as well or another similar image since I gave a numerous Miku images I downloaded.  I am sure I have a larger version and resize it for the background.  Anymore logo, background, wiki skin style suggestions?   Antonio Lopez  (talk) 02:41, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yamaha owes a big thing to Miku, she's the one who placed Vocaloid on the limelight. Hence, Miku should be the defacto mascot of the program. O Herman 03:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Seeing as though no-one has any other suggestions i think its fair to go with the Miku + metalic vocaloid text. You still working on this Antonio or want me to give the logo wiki a call? Kaiseine 10:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Logo1.png asked the kind people over at the logo wiki and gave them some pictures and text to work with. The result was this. I rather like it. What do you guys think? Kaiseine 15:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Use the fonts as used in the vocaloid logo. O Herman 15:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's the same font used for the Japanese Vocaloid logo, but its not capitalised. Want me to get that changed? The colour change is there simply because white on white wouldn't work too well. Or are you refering to the English vocaloid logo? Kaiseine 15:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm... use all caps. Try some background gradients, and try playing around with the name logo positioning. O Herman 15:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll ask about the caps, shouldn't be a big issue. As for the background its opaque so it'll go over any background colour well. I can't really try out naming positions since its not me making the image, its the guys over at the Logo Wiki and they tend to work by suggestions. if you have a rough idea of what you think might fit i could always pass it along. Kaiseine 16:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's the logo with capital text. Kaiseine 14:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC) Logo2.png
 * I'd like some more feedback please so i can either continue with the open request on the logo wiki or close it.Kaiseine 15:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Upload it on Image:Wiki.png to update the wiki logo.   Antonio Lopez  (talk) 20:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Official Character Profiles
I am leaning onto the idea of making character profile pages for the official characters, for the following reasons:
 * 1) There is sufficient official information about this, and other aspects are supplied by fanon, which has a surprisingly united concensus. (This is actually true with Miku, including a lot of Kei Garou's depictions, which can be considered as good as canon.)
 * 2) Like with what Ymiyass900 has been adding in the individual character profiles for the derivatives, it gives a place to properly list song rosters. Moreso with the official characters.
 * 3) With properly written and official information, we can help users keep character portrayal accurate, removing most or all guessworks when it comes to character information.
 * 4) There is similar interest with such information, but for the english vocaloids. There's many fanon catering to this, which has majority concensus on a unified portrayal.

For this purpose, links for such will be written as Miku Hatsune (character) to indicate it is a character profile. O Herman 04:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've been giving a bit of thought about this and i'm more inclined towards leaving the current character pages as is with links to seperate song rosters and 3rd party material. Otherwise you'll end up with sparse information spatered around. There'll be the original page for the vocaloid character program itself, then you'll have the character page mostly concerning fandom, then a song roster page etc. Maybe its because i've always been partial to large, informative articles but i just have visisons of Miku's page turning into something like Kaitos. Kaiseine 10:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Vocaloid Derivatives
Sorry to bring back this talk, but the pages for derivatives have become playrooms with kids' drawings. The problem is that everyone is able to claim his/her own "Vocaloid" with just an concept art under the current criteria. I think the proposal brought by ymiyass900 works well, and I would like to offer the suggestion again on the pages "Fanmade Vocaloids," "Fanmade Vocaloid Mascots," "Original Vocaloid Characters" and "Human Vocaloids." My idea is as follows, some were recycled.

Each of 1. Officially approved by Crypton and other distributors. (Miku Hachune, e.g.) 2. Multiple works by multiple creators. (Neru Akita, Haku Yowane, e.g.) 3. More than 10,000 views on Nicovideo or YouTube. (Sai Tonarine, e.g.) Damesukekun 14:52, December 4, 2009 (UTC)

2 and 3 are unattainable at this age where UTAU voicebanks are more appreciated than these fanmades.

>>1. Officially approved by Crypton and other distributors.

>>The problem is that everyone is able to claim his/her own "Vocaloid" with just an concept art under the current criteria. Except for Fanmade Vocaloids, yeah, this has been quite a problem as of late. But what about those that do have homepages and a working voice configuration? Or those that has a song roster? What if that fanmade is not popular in Japan, but is popular elsewhere? case in point: DeviantArt. Vocaloid fandom does not revolve exclusively in Nico-Nico Douga, Piapro nor in YouTube alone.

>>2. Multiple works by multiple creators. Assuming this policy is considered by a non-Japanese producer, this is a community different from Japan, so this isn't easily as attainable as you think. Maybe if it was a year ago, this would've been reasonable. Beyond Fanmade Vocaloids, this will junk almost all categories and plenty if not all of the entries therein.

>>3. More than 10,000 views on Nicovideo or YouTube. 10k is too much. Considering cultural differences, tastes and other factors, it is somewhat rare in the western community for a producer that has the talent to create such characters that would be a hit overnight/popular to appear. 10k views at what rate of time?

This proposal has been historically difficult to address because it will create a fandom paradox. With such criteria to become notable enought to stay in their pages, only those creations that have been conceptualized a year ago would fit, and those that are just starting or aren't notable in Japan would be disregarded. We need a better mechanism to filter serious creations from those that are, as you said, kids' drawings, without discouraging potential serious creators. O Herman 21:11, December 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * I've got it. We'll discuss this matter again when this wiki is matured.Damesukekun 02:23, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Genderbent vs. fanmade?
I know that Fanmade Vocaloids require a voice config. However, this is ruling out a lot of genderbent Vocaloids, some of which are way more popular than the others on the Fanmades page. For instance, Megurine Luki/Luke is now automatically thought of as the alternative for male Luka. And come to think about it, is there any Mikuo or Kaiko or Gakuko or Meito song out there that's actually a config change and not just a Miku or Kaito or Gakupo or Meiko song pitched? Even TVtropes has a list of all of the genderbends.

I think a better idea is to relocate them all into their own page - genderbending is its own fad, and I don't think it's necessary to require a config as long as they're popular enough. Like, for instance, Akinos/Kaniso, Gumo, Luki...think they have enough merit to finally get on a credible page? Your thoughts? Only dead fish go with the flow. 05:57, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Original Vocaloid Songs
So, this wiki has slowly been adding more and more pages for individual Vocaloid songs. I'm personally very happy about this; it's great to have lyrics (kanji, romaji, and translated), covers, and PVs all in the same place. However, if this continues, maybe we should try to make guidelines for how songs get their own articles, so we can begin adding song pages in a more systematic way. I think we can agree it wouldn't be the best to become another Hatsune Miku Vocaloid Lyric Wiki; that already exists. But there are definitely quite a few big songs out there that could use their own pages, like Magnet, Romeo + Cinderella, and Meltdown.

Suggestions for parameters? -- Lenga-chan 23:20, March 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well I think we can put it here, this wiki is really short on articles and hopping to different wikis can get annoying. Songs are already included here.  Antonio Lopez  (talk) 03:10, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also if you think a song should have it's own page, then please do create it :)  Antonio Lopez  (talk) 03:11, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Inconsistant Layouts
Hi all... Its noticable that the layout of this wikia is confusing.

Take for instance the vocaloids themselves. Each one is different to the next in most cases. Can we have some consistancey to the layouts, so they all are easier to edit. For instance, there is no history to Prima's page, yet on others there are. In fact... The only consitant thing is that they all have song lists. Sonika's page, for example, matches the others possibly to say the least of all of them.

I know some thing about them are going to have been done differently, but that can be also sorted out once the pages are sorted.

Also a little curiousity befalls me on HOW you are listing the names on the template. In the V1 list, their in order of release... Then V2, Crypton's is first... Then its a mess. Wouldn't it be better if the template went:

Vocaloid :


 * Zero-G: Leon, Lola, Miriam
 * Crpyton: Meiko, Kaito

Vocaloid 2:


 * Zero-G: Prima, Sonkia, Tonio
 * Crypton: Miku, Len/Rin, Luka
 * Internet co.: etc, etc, etc

This wikia is a bit messy (I mean it nicely, but can't avoid the word). It could do with a little bit of tidying up so it looks a bit more professional, if anything. One-Winged Hawk 14:07, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Issue resolved, in the end I did it myself. I hope everyone likes whats been going on so far.  One-Winged Hawk 16:09, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

"Parodies"?
In many of the song articles on the wiki, all covers of the song that change lyric at all are referred to as parodies (e.g. in メルト (Melt) and Story of Evil. Is this the best phrasing? Songs like Shotarella and Yami no Ou are parodies, but at least in American usage the Kaito/Meiko cover of Melt or "Daughter of Green" would not be considered such. Maybe it differs in the nico community...? - Lenga-chan 02:11, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Loanword Romaji Policy
So since our site has been expanding Vocaloid Original Song content lately, there has been a slow increase in romaji lyrics of songs. However, although we generally have consistent use of the Hepburn romanization system, there is some inconsistency as to how loanwords should be treated. By some romanizers (RENA and motokokusangi2009 come to mind), the English word represented replaces the Japanese spelling (e.g. lines in adolescence become "onaji Bed yurareteta", "marude kimi no Knight" and so on). This could be argued as flawed when the exact word intended is ambiguous due to the phonetic system of written Japanese, where English distinctions between certain sounds are lost (e.g. reberu could mean rebel, revel, or level, shin could be thin, sin, or shin). Others preserve the Japanese spelling but render the word in capitals to hint at the fact it was written in katakana. Many just treat the word the same as any other in the song. Thoughts? It's not a big problem now or anything, but we should probably come to a decision now so it doesn't come back to bite us when we have 50 songs and have to go back and look at every article.

Maybe Italic letters are helpful. For example, バーチャルと現実のはざまで (between the virtual and the real) will be "virtual to genjitsu no hazama de." Damesukekun 14:19, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think English (and French, German, Spanish and so on) words should be written as they are.


 * I would think so from a clarity standpoint, but one problem is that the main use of romaji lyrics is for foreign people who want to sing the song and can't read it from actual Japanese lyrics. So when the pronunciation differs as it does a lot of the time, it can't be used that way very well. (When I was first starting out with fandubs, innocently thought that the word rendered "magnet" in one lyric of that song was sung with two syllables instead of five...) With sufficient knowledge of Japanese phonetics a guess can usually be made, but many singers don't have that (oh, how I wish they did), and some things are just guesswork, such as whether a final R becomes an aa or ru, or if S or Z is used for the "th" sound. - Lenga-chan 22:38, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then writing in both English and Romaji will work well. Again バーチャルと現実のはざまで will be "baacharu (virtual) to genjitsu no hazama de." Damesukekun 13:00, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Japanese style or English style?
Is it Miku Hatsune or Hatsune Miku? At times both are used on the wikia and other places one or the other. I'm presuming English way, but the odd places its not throws you off. One-Winged Hawk 05:47, June 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it better to take the given-name-first style. If an article needs the Japanese style for explanation such as Neru Akita, the surname-first style can be bracketed off like "Neru Akita (Akita Neru, pun on 飽きた、寝る)". Damesukekun 07:20, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Use of Musical Terms
Okay some minor notes... Since Vocaloid is a music program, we should be using some musical terms... I'm not going to go into great detail, a minor thing thats a start is getting names of groups right. ^_^'

And for note, a choir refers to a large group of singers of an unspecified number. I know its a very minor thing to bring up, but you know... It looks a little more professional. Seeing "Duet" used for Leon with Lola and Miriam singing is kind of funny... Because "duet" comes from "duo" meaning "two". How can he duet with two people? He can only duet with one. One-Winged Hawk 15:14, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) solo
 * 2) duet
 * 3) trio
 * 4) quanet quartet Correction, sorry my bad.
 * 5) pentet Quintet Another correction, I'm having a bad day today
 * 6) Sentet Sextet
 * 7) Septet
 * 8) Octet
 * 9) Nonet


 * It seems reasonable, but is "quanet" a typo? I was under the impression it was a "quartet". -- Lenga-chan 18:10, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Whoops! XD One-Winged Hawk 21:08, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * More corrections, I confess my notes were wrong on something... Hehee, good start! :-D One-Winged Hawk 21:19, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Images
I kinda don't have the power to delete, so I'm going to point it out. There is a host of images on the site that aren't being added to pages. Someone needs to clear out the back log of unused images. Wikias are not hosting sites, and having them on the databanks without use brings into question many probelsm with copyright. You can get away with whats up, but whats not up is questionable. Also, even fanar4t is problematic, since there are international art rules in Japan that some artists will bring upon them selves to enforce.

It is regarded as fanart stealing if you take the artwork as well, hence why I've been removing a few, and it does have potential to upset. We do know whats on Crypton's uploading site is sort of okay, but honestly... Theres still no excuse for uploading artwork without using it. We need to have someone just clear out unused images, or images already on site must find a new home. I'll leave this to the site staff to decide if they enforce, but I'd thought I'd point it out to give the wikia a chance to think about it.

If the wikia is being used as a image host, thats problematic since the wikia groups copyrights and regulations don't cover for it being used that way. Plus, photobucket and that do exist with copyrights that pretty much cover the thigns wikia doesn't. Think about all this... One-Winged Hawk 11:40, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I am fully aware this problem. There is a simple solution, type on all the images you think are copyright violation, I am currently working on a way to delete all unused images soon, but first I need to do some maintenance on some articles to fix images that are bieng used and avoid accidental deletion. Thank you for your concern.  Antonio Lopez  (talk) 20:51, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * http://vocaloid.wikia.com/wiki/Special:UnusedFiles


 * Its that pile of images. some of these are linked by pages, their just not on them. That needs to be resolved somehow. Thats why I've not already put the template up on pages. Its actually difficult, you can check to see which pages link to, but really there needs to be some orgnaisation first... Plus if you get like Neru, I recall theres more then one image here and I don't want to be the one decide on my own which stays and which not. Though my concern is, like today, when someone uploads pictures of Miku not intended for pages. That much can be templated. One-Winged Hawk 21:42, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes I am aware of that issue, that is what I meant by "maintenance", I am actually working on this and have a solution, I just need a large time block in my schedule to run this tedious process, but hey I love to do tedious work. Also I mean tag the copyrighted images, I will solve the unused images soon. Antonio Lopez  (talk) 21:47, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * At the moment, I'm tagging the images which are copyright in unused... I myself don't have much time, its 22:54 where I live, pitch black outside and I'm quite tired. BTW, do you have a dupelicate image template??? One-Winged Hawk


 * nah just tag with reason and I can delete it and then any other articles using the duplicate can be fixed. I don't have time as well like I used to since I need spend most of my mornings practicing euphonium and trombone all this summer. Antonio Lopez  (talk) 22:00, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

I'll sort this proper out then tomorrow. *some* of the unused images will temporay be moved onto a "keep" page or the fan pages or something... I'm too tired to really think now much on it. I'll decide what to do in the morning. One-Winged Hawk 22:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't approach it that way, I will eventually do it, a keep page is not needed in my opinion because that will take to long and chances for error might happen, I just need to go fix some articles and wait like one or two days (17 hours probably) and just nuke the unused images and it's simple, it's just tedious and a lot safer since I will know which images are actually unused, I plan doing this operation on Friday where I have more time. I actually attempted in doing this already and it will take time. Antonio Lopez  (talk) 22:32, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * You could knock off a couple images here and there and do the remaining on Friday, it make lessen the burden on Friday. What would be nice is if a image guideline was written, so other users know what shoud and shouldn't be up. Might make life easier if other editors nominated images added that don't follow based on the guidelines. But honestly... That can wait for a little while. No good writing it up until the current situation is sorted.


 * Actaully, no new page would be created. I think I made a sandbox page on my user page, I was going to recycle that. I'll wait and see what you do on Friday though. ;-) One-Winged Hawk 06:57, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

I think the official Vocaloid images meet the fair use doctrine under the US Code. And the distributors do not seem to have any objection to using them for non-commercial purpose. To say about the notable fanmade Vocaloids such as Neru and Haku, I'll contact the authors for receiving authorization if there is need. Damesukekun 13:09, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Black ★ Rock Shooter
BRS is not a variant or derivative of Miku. This is a character created by huke and Crypton requests users not post BRSs on Piapro. I recycled the page of BRS to clear off the prevailing confusion and possible ethical problem. Damesukekun 14:23, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Deleting Forum Topics
Basically, whats the point of having a forum if your just going to delete the topics? I just went looking for the Sonika poll so I could show someone the results and found its gone. You've always had the forum, but as soon as I set it up for usage, someone deletes it, why? One-Winged Hawk 05:28, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

I know what you mean. Damesukekun 07:22, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Hacker in Original Vocaloid Characters
Someone was running around and screwing up people's OCloid profiles.

Entries that appeared to be damaged:

All entries under the catagory heading(which was probably also changed, because that just doesn't sound right) "General videos Vocaloid Original Cast".

I'm contacting all creators who have dA accounts listed in the profile remnants.

I looked through the archives, and all corruption was done on July 7th, by a nonexistant account named GAKUCHU.

Asteriski 20:20, July 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay. Even though those OCs aren't as standard as they appear to be, what he did is STILL an offense. If found guilty, I will have that bastard blocked. O Herman 22:35, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Improvements
Making improvements to the wikia, seperating "vocaloid" into different software pages versions since hopefully it will be easier to seeprate whats applied to what. I apolgise to all... I was hoping to complete the task in one sitting but it may take me all week. Help and support, ideas etc are welcomed. Most of it is stuff I uploaded to wikipedia, but now am transferring here. Obivously though, wikipedia is wikipedia and all the references were adjusted to suit wikipedia. The current suitation is, yeah its a direct copy+ past and I'll sort that out slowly over the course of this week.

Sorry for the mess in the meantime... I really should have done this sooner I suppose. But if Vocaloid 3 ends up as big as Vocaloid 2, or bigger, then the room might be needed more. ^_^' One-Winged Hawk 11:07, September 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Stopped for the day due to dizzy spell. Will continue at some point within the next few days. One-Winged Hawk 14:04, September 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Correctin, dizzy spell went, felt better, did more editing... Stopped.  The dizzy spell was caused by me dragging 16 cans of coka cola home and two 2 litre bottles of Fanta.  Its catching up with me.  I only continued to edit because I forgot to add additional details of things today.  And on a note... I'm never doing the shopping trip like that degree ever again.  Lol. But yeah, whats up is fully free to be hacked around by others. ;-) 94.168.119.106 19:42, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

Notable song page clean up
Just noting, the more recent songs added to pages like VY1 Mizki, Lily and Tonio need cleaning up, as well as several others. Mostly... I'm guilty here since I added them, but there are others slipping in. 94.168.119.106 18:49, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Western style or Japanese style
It has been mention in this poll that the Japanese style is preferred, but this yet has to be voted by the community and not a poll since any one can vote again by swapping computers in another ip address. The proper way we will do this is by having a vote here to who approves of the proper style by community members. Currently Hatsune Miku has been moved and I merged the history, the other Vocaloids will be moved as soon as this closes as successful. Thank you  Antonio Lopez  (talk) 18:02, September 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * So can we change it or what? The majority of the votes of the few editors here is "for"? One-Winged Hawk 19:37, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Support

 * 1) For; Its better to have it as the product is written rather then force it to be any other way. In fact I'm quite surprised that it was orginally in this format. Also I'd like to note, while it is possible to swap computers, ditto is applied here. A user could have 5 accounts running at once, and use them on 5 different computers. Any form of polling will have this problem on-line. ^_- One-Winged Hawk 18:13, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am glad you see this minor point, this is a serious matter to be in a poll and such big change should be disccussed by erveryone, sorry for the trouble ^_^' I was actually here when the format was changed to Western but no idscusion was set at the time and made this discussion to finally discuss this situation. Antonio Lopez  (talk)18:21, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe previous discussions had occured outside of Miku's page, but lfor the ife of me don't quote my memory or where they would be. 94.168.119.106 22:11, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm actually surprised it was changed in the first place, as far as things go, people generally prefer it to be Japanese way as its the former and proper writing method. Although, when you think about it, if it WAS changed without discussion previously, then at least we had discussion, a global scale style voting and now voting and discussion here.  With that in consideration, the previous change from Japanese to Western therefore was technically "incorrect".
 * Take note also, the software failed to sell in America yet a got 40% of all purchses for Vocaloid music in Japanese Vocaloid music is coming from America. Obivously, their not producers because their not buying the software, their anime fans.  Animes fans usually prefer it how its written anyway so a chunk of our visitors are Vocaloid anime fans, not music fans.  The music fans won't know any better but the anime fans can work it out. Also, those who know how Japanese style of writing IS laid out with get confused by the surname not being in Japanese anyway, while Hatsune might be mistaken for a first name, likewise Miku in the western style might be mistake for the surname.  Its a double edge sword in consideration.
 * Sorry for this, I used to have all these arguments on wikipedia over this sort of thing. You'll properly find, the site was matched to wikipedia, though I will note; is this site wikipedia?  No,.  Therefore, it can have things as it wants. Just clarifying that because I see on wikias people insisting they be matched to the wikipedia page counterpart.  I also see other pitiful arguements like American Vs British spelling.  ¬_¬' 94.168.119.106 06:19, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah it's true, this is not Wikipedia, and as Wikia wiki we can do more then than the Wikipedia's notability limitations and possibly more. In fact other language Wikipedia projects don't allow fair use images and the English Wikipedia sometimes has reverts to YouTube links at some points.  Regarding the the English versus other English versions, I would just go for the first language that article was written.  If the article was first written as Oxford English, it will be Oxford English to the  end under most circumstances.  Such as if the article is re-written, meaning the article is not written in the correct style, the English used might and could be changed by the user who is rewriting the whole article to the version of his or her own English Language as long as it's understandable.  Antonio Lopez  (talk) 18:42, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) For; But first I would like to apologize m(_ _)m for not using the Community Discussion, as I started the conversation on Miku's talk page instead. Moving on, due to the fact they are Japanese products and their names are arranged in traditional Japanese order, I think it would be good to match it. It will be simple to make a note at the top of the page that Miku is her first name and Hatsune as her last name (and so on with the other Cryptons), after all Wikis are meant to inform others by some means. I am use to both forms due to being an American who hears people use their family name before their first name, of course it depends on the situation. I know there are those parts of the Vocaloid fandom that still believe Hatsune is her first name, so unless they start learning about Japanese name order, they will always believe that regardless of what the title article is -lol. Would this change apply to the Japanese voice providers? -- Bunai82 (talk) 19:21, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * It might or should affect them Antonio Lopez  (talk)19:26, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually the voice providers will remain western format, Wikipedia formats them that way so we should at least keep that naming convention for them for now. Antonio Lopez  (talk) 18:20, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) For. I keep seeing broken links or potholes as a result of the western order all over the place, and the fact is that surname first is the convention in both the Japanese fandom (obviously) and the Western fandom. (Case in point: Google results give 2M for "Hatsune Miku" and less than 1M for "Miku Hatsune". Confining that to Youtube results, it's about 1M for "Hatsune Miku" and 300K for "Miku Hatsune". The ratios are similar for Rin, Luka, Kiyoteru, and Gakupo (though some are even more slanted in favor of the Asian order; Luka is 4 to 1). The only person I've ever known personally who called them with the last name first also thought Hatsune had a silent E... so yeah. - Lenga-chan 00:49, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) Shakes topic -- Bunai82 (talk) 17:39, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) Although it is written as it was published, this is obviously by name. With respect to naming systems, some people do think Hatsune is her first name instead of Miku. O Herman 18:18, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the problem with that thought is by Japanese stanrdards calling someone by their surname is technically also not incorrect. Also you must also consider with the Kagamine their names have meaning; "mirror sound left" and "mirror sound right". this makes things complex as Len and Rin Kagamine is  technically incorrect. 94.168.119.106 22:14, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then I propose the remainder of the "western name" article names be recycled by containing information according to fandom interpretation, while the "japanese name" article name can be reserved for official and technical articles. O Herman 09:33, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Nuetral

 * 1) Neutral currently neutral, but don't mind which one is preferred. Antonio Lopez  (talk) 18:02, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Criteria for songs?
Is there a criteria for the songs added to the wikia overall? I know I pushed each page to 20 songs in order for all Vocaloids to have a wider song examples. That seems to have worked out quite well on those pages. However... Someone just asked recently about this and pointed out Sweet Ann's page has some songs that depending on opinions might not be that great. Part of me point out for Sweet Ann, songs like "this rush" aren't that brilliant, however she doesn't overall have many orginal songs to begin with. So, do you remove that song, OR keep it? Right now, I lean towards "keep" until more songs come along.

But regardless, what are everyone's views.

BTW, whats happening on the Japanese Vs English naming style? I noticed on wikipedia they use "Japanese" style and overall it came out as the fav. in both the main page poll and the editor personnel poll. One-Winged Hawk 18:06, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Quite bored os solo editing
I wish more people would edit the wikia. Even when there are days I don't edit, which are a lot, no one else does. Com'on guys. One of the reasons I appear to be "owning" his place is because I'm one of the few editors bothering to edit and I feel like I'm just picking up the pieces no one else is bothering with. If it does seem like I am "owning" the wikia, its because I have some very big ideas for the wikia and I've got a lot of experience with wiki-ing. However, whenever I try to discuss them with everyone else, not a soul replies to me so I've had to go ahead with things.

It just would be nice if help was given every now again. >_<' One-Winged Hawk 19:36, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Changing the wikia's logo?
Well, Miku is good and all but I'm think we need a more "open" logo instead of a Miku focused, theres a reason for that I add.

Suggestions? One-Winged Hawk 13:09, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

 This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.