User talk:Tokina8937

Status
Oh that wasn't vandalism, I had two wikis open, this one and the Darwinia wiki for the game Darwinia. I somehow, accidently pasted a insert I had copied on the other wiki onto this one and didn't spot it. It was late at night and I didn't spot it. O.O One-Winged Hawk (talk) 16:18, June 26, 2018 (UTC)

Haha no problem! Was wondering what was that thing... XD Anyways thanks for the details ^^" Tokina8937 16:20, June 26, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Deletions of reprints and the "case Tmbox"
We would prefer unofficial reprints to be removed from all sandboxes and derivatives, etc etc regardless of the pages' ages. Authorized reprints can stay as they have some form of permission from the producer to be reuploaded (but they should be noted as authorized reprints).

I actually don't know a thing about tmbox as this was there prior to my editing history at Vocaloid Wikia. I would suggest asking Bunai Di about that. If it's dead, then definitely go over this with her and see what she wants done.

- NebulousViper Talk Page  00:51, July 5, 2018 (UTC)

Re: "Case Tmbox" Edit
It is preferred that even 'dead links' remain as a show of proof of the upload and history of a song along with the producer.

We have a 'comment' parameter for some of the templates that should inform readers that an upload is no longer present. -- Bunai82 (talk) 17:49, July 5, 2018 (UTC)

RE:Pixiv links fix needed - Moke and Qingxian
Sorry for the late response. I didn't notice the message until now.

I actually don't know much about the external links sections of the character pages themselves. If there's a mistake, it's because I probably did a sloppy copy+paste job. I'd say ask an editor who was here longer than me. ^^; (Probably Bunai knows)

- NebulousViper Talk Page  19:39, July 17, 2018 (UTC)

The template treats the equal sign (=) as a parameter, you need to use unicode -- Bunai82 (talk) 23:44, July 17, 2018 (UTC)

RE:Ban evading? - Jovianawilson300
I'm already trying to contact the other admins about this as they have far more experience in dealing with these types of users. I rarely deal with ban evaders myself, so I'm unsure of how to handle it without help.

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother trying to correct the pages. I just straightup delete them because of how obnoxiously annoying this is. If she doesn't bother to do the correct format, then I don't bother giving those pages another glance. This is a waste of everyone's time when they could be doing something else.

You are more than welcome to remake them if you'd like though.

- NebulousViper Talk Page  19:51, July 18, 2018 (UTC)

No but no worries, I have lots of time to remake them, no need to do a delete. Also, I don't think this is the only account created by the user: I saw another medea something popping out of nowhere, however, no dangerous behavior, only view count update. Good luck to you all :s

Tokina8937 19:54, July 18, 2018 (UTC)


 * I am trying to contact the other admins for their opinions as we speak. The thing that leads me to believe it's the same user is the fixation on Deadball-P. AmandaMay and Jovianawilson300 both had fixations on that producer and added the same kind of pointless images. I did try to take it up with higher staff and it seems I may have to do so again depending on what the other admins think.


 * This is incredibly tiring and a waste of everyone's time. I am very sorry that this is an ongoing issue for the past week. You guys could be doing something else that's more productive, but you end up reverting someone else's stuff constantly or picking up after them. It's not fair to any of you.


 * - NebulousViper Talk Page  18:06, July 22, 2018 (UTC)

No worries Viper, actually I'd be the one who would be sorry for disturbing all of you... It's just that this user is really, really dumb... -_- She knows it that creating multi accounts like this won't make the things better... At least I hope?

I know we are all busy by at least one task, and that seeing someone doing nonsense on this Wiki is no fun at all... But what can we do? She denies listening to us, at a moment, we can't do anything more :(

Thanks again for your patience :s

Tokina8937 18:19, July 22, 2018 (UTC)


 * You've got nothing to apologize for. You're doing right by reporting it, so I appreciate everything you guys are doing and are paying attention to what's going on. That's very observant and helpful. I just feel bad that it's the same person causing issues (at least from what we can assume). And honestly, we've given her a bunch of chances over the time she's been here. She just didn't improve and still hasn't. Back then, she used to blank her page every time someone tried contacting her about her mistakes, which is generally a no-no. And while she hasn't been doing that recently, she just chooses to not listen which is a shame.


 * - NebulousViper Talk Page  18:54, July 22, 2018 (UTC)

Popping in here to say if you're not 100% sure whether Joviana and Amandamay are the same people, you could always get a checkuser done on the two users. It seems pretty obvious but you never know, and then again it may not work considering how easy it is to change your IP if you know what they're doing. Anyway that was all I wanted to say~ EarthlingnAkumi@the perfect person doesn't exis-*sees crusher-p* (talk) 19:23, July 22, 2018 (UTC)

Akumi: I don't know if Viper already used the tool, but it may be possible. After, if you want to learn something, some IP changers are forbidden on Wiki websites (as well Wikipedia than Wikia) (I see you Tor Browser!) This is an admin-reserved tool though, but I think he prefers waiting for what other admins have to say before doing something. This can be understandable since for all of the accounts that have been created, the behavior can be really different. The better treatment would be a "case by case" but here...

- User who doesn't obey the admins, who doesn't read what other users have to say

- User who does many ban evadings, which is normally a "no-no" (I know some services can ban indefinitively just because of that)

- And user who does the same mistakes despite the warnings...

That's why Lynnellet was the first one to have the doubt (ref to discussion page of Googoo800), who said the edits of this account "mirrored" the ones of Amandamay and Jovianawilson. When I saw the edits myself, I had a doubt, I thought "maybe the same user". Then Viper looked at the behavior and said "these accounts have the same fixation". After, yeah, I agree that it would be ridiculous that we do a list of every account created by the same user. Knowing that there are lots of them. Really. :(

We can just hope that the IP didn't switch in the meantime (every 2/3 days this happens for Internet boxes, to guess it would be the same case for her).

So, "wait and see"...?

Tokina8937 19:34, July 22, 2018 (UTC)


 * Iirc the checkuser is something that you request for staff, so it would actually be something used if it becomes a serious problem. I saw the discussions about googoo888 and thought "wait, something about this username looks familiar". I then realized it was the username was the same name of a popular subber on youtube. It is very possible that this is still Amandamay though. I do agree about the wait and see thing though. Really unfortunate that this same user keeps attempting to evade her bans :(.


 * This is why you heed the warnings of admins. I would report her to the VSTF, but sadly they only do stuff for spam/vandalism.


 * Oh, and another thing to add on to this. I talked to some users on Community Central and they said we should report it to special:contact/general so we can get her to stop. I recommend and admin does this though ^_^
 * EarthlingnAkumi@the perfect person doesn't exis-*sees crusher-p* (talk) 19:38, July 22, 2018 (UTC)

We can always try if they block per mail or something like that. However, would be better if it was Viper (or another admin) who saw the thing. ^^" Last time I tried contacting the Support (this was for a tabber bug on another Wiki, which wasn't mine), they answered as if I was the owner of this Wiki or at least one of its admins... (But that is not the question here)

We can just wait for the moment... I think we'll know it in some way when the case of the Googoo800 account will be treated.

Also, thanks for the YT link, that was the thing Lynnellet was actually referring to... So here, we can have a decisive clue for the impersonnation.

Tokina8937 20:04, July 22, 2018 (UTC)

OK update, I didn't see, but on the 18th Viper actually used VSTF here. So he already found an IP adress, which wasn't banned yet.

Now to find if some other IPs exist for the same user.

Tokina8937 22:32, July 22, 2018 (UTC)


 * Hmm, probably ended up denying it bc as I said prior, VSTF only deals with vandalism/spam or offensive content.


 * Also, I might not be able to respond tonight because the power may go out due to storms :// but i'll try and see if any other IPs are around.


 * OOF LOUD THUNDER GONNA GO NOW BYE


 * EDIT: alright so i went through the deadball-p page since that seems to be a popular page for their sockpuppets. User:91300medea seems like a possible sockpuppet and so does User:63041dfed, though I could be wrong on both. 91300 seems more likely because of the medea in their name; however they didn't join today when most of this sockpuppeting crap happened.


 * EarthlingnAkumi@the perfect person doesn't exis-*sees crusher-p* (talk) 22:38, July 22, 2018 (UTC)

My gut instinct tells me that both 91300medea and 63041dfed are the same person we are discussing about.

First of all, the naming pattern. I don't have much proof to support this, but hear me out. Jovianawilson300, Amandamay3711, 91300medea, 63041dfed, and perharps Googoo888 as well, you guys see the pattern here? [Number + letters] or [letters + number].

Secondly, the editing style. We have seen two cases by now: the two-account pattern (Joviana - 91300medea) + (Googoo888 - 63041dfed).

How can we tell the two-account pattern are of the same person?
 * The two accounts do edits at a suspiciously similar/close timestamp (idk how to word), usually about 5-10 mins far from each other.
 * 91300meadea's last edit was at 02:09. Joviana's last edit was at 02:40 (banned).
 * Googoo888's last edit was at 23:03. 63041dfed started editing at 23:07.
 * Behaviors similar to those of the first account, Amandamay.
 * Their edits revolve around Deadball-P (image files, albums, song pages, etc.)
 * They update view count and background of similar pages (namely Meguri Hime Buyou Kyoku, 39 Music!). Especially the first one, since it's near 1 mil views. She would pay special attention to the page.
 * They all use Visual Editor
 * Naming pattern mentioned above

My theory is that, she created two accounts. The first one (Jovianawilson, Googoo888) mainly do edits focused on Deadball-P. The second one (91300medea, 63041dfed) updates viewcounts or background of song pages, and also messes with the Deadball-P image files as well.

I am 90% confident they are all the same person by now.

Lynn 04:22, July 23, 2018 (UTC)

I think Lynn really well decrypted the behaviors (even if 63041dfed tries to mess up the tracks if you see what I mean). I said at the top of the discussion part on this page for the "medea something" (I really said it like this because I didn't keep the numbers in mind) but the behavior seemed to not be dangerous. There is still a chance Amandamay still uses these accounts for bad behaviors after the ones with indeed the bad behaviors have been banned. (Or else she'll just continue to create some others) And she knows she is losing her time. Ban evading never helped someone's reputation, even worse. Or, is she playing with us?

And that's also why I said that creating a list of all possible multi-accounts would be ridiculous because of the number.

For the VSTF, indeed, I saw that the request has not been treated by their team. Account of Amanday? It's still the ban from Damesuke which is listed in the journals. Jovianawilson's one? It's the one that Viper has set (probably with the help of some other admins, ref to beginning of discussion). The anonymous IP? Not a single ban. After, who knows if this IP didn't change already... :/

For the current accounts? Still no ban, I don't know if this is because "possibly a last chance" (the edits by Joviana were really nocive, that's why the account has been banned)... Um... Think would be better if all of us kept an eye into it. And if ever it goes really, but really too far -> message to an admin. I know we shouldn't do this because we all have other things to do but... Seems we have no choice, apparently? :(

And finally, if there is one thing I don't want but that could be done to finally try to stop or at least slow down this user would be to set the permissions to "sysop" for all of the concerned pages... (That's the reason I decided to do the treatment for Deadball's page to remove reprints, just in case (yes I'm that paranoid) )

(Still sorry for this Viper, and don't be sorry about all this story, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the user who messes up with everyone T-T )

Tokina8937 09:03, July 23, 2018 (UTC)


 * I've seen a lot of situations like these off-wikis, and while sysop protection works temporarily it won't last for long. Especially because one of the main reason Amandamay got banned in the first place was creating pages in the wrong format.


 * And as for what Lynn said, I totally agree; you listed the behaviors of Amandamay and her alts very well. We should keep that as reference.


 * You know, it would be funny if Amandamay were reading all of this and using it to her advantage. I would say move this convo to another wiki but honestly that's too much. I just want all this sockpuppeting crap to stop so the admins and us regulars can work on V5 stuff & reprints instead of solving the big Amandamay mystery.


 * EDIT: Alright, checked the VSTF page report and it looks like Bunai also reported Amandamay, but they rejected the report as they don't deal with this type of spam. Bunai also stated that they're close to only letting registered users edit, because of Amandamay's anon sockpuppets. But I don't think that's going to work considering that half of her sockpuppets are accounts. Imo what we should do instead is block un-autoconfirmed users (an autoconfirmed user is a user whose account is 4 days old). I feel that that would work better so when she does go to create a sockpuppet, she can't use it for 4 days, slowing her down. Just my personal opinion :p


 * EarthlingnAkumi@the perfect person doesn't exis-*sees crusher-p* (talk) 13:34, July 23, 2018 (UTC)

Thank you
I'm dyslexic/dyspraxic and I can't always make words seem right. I try my best, but I'm clumsy. I apricate the corrections. English is my native language, if you think I get it this bad, you should see my butchering of German and Japanese at times, the two languages I took effort to partly learn how to speak (sort of). O_O' One-Winged Hawk (talk) 22:31, July 21, 2018 (UTC)

I actually saw that on your profile several weeks ago. :/ So no worries I'm aware about these problems. I won't be mad at you just for that. :) I also have some problems myself (more on sociability on my side, that's where I'm clumsy).

Do you know what you meant in the first sentence though (its end actually)? I think there are just some missing words but I have difficulties to rebuild the sentence... You can answer it here or in the page's comment. :)

And if ever you need help don't hesitate :D

Tokina8937 22:36, July 21, 2018 (UTC)


 * Honestly, sometimes I re-read my writing and can't make sense of it, otherwise I'd be able to help you. I can write something and then 1 hour later forget either I'd written it or what I was meant to say.


 * I've written stuff on the wikia that I've re-read 5 years later and I honestly didn't even realise I'd written it. So I can't help you here, I'm so sorry but this happens a lot to me. Its why I don't claim to be a smart person or a genius, and though people have accused me of even being a "know it all" what I know is because I've read it a dozen times before it stuck at all, and most of the stuff I can say is just things I've spent weeks trying to remember in the first place. It gets frustrating my end at times.


 * Either way, I am grateful when my writing is corrected for this reason. :-D 22:54, July 21, 2018 (UTC)
 * No need to be sorry, it's not your fault, I know these mistakes are never on purpose. For the moment, I'll just take the "problematic" part of the sentence into an invisible comment. OK? :)
 * And seriously, I don't understand the people calling you a "know-it-all". That's just stupid to think such a thing...
 * So don't worry ^^ And after all, this place is here to help each other as well :)
 * Tokina8937 23:04, July 21, 2018 (UTC)
 * So don't worry ^^ And after all, this place is here to help each other as well :)
 * Tokina8937 23:04, July 21, 2018 (UTC)
 * Tokina8937 23:04, July 21, 2018 (UTC)

RE: Why the exact view counts updates exactly?
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with your messages. They appeared neutral to me.

I also think that a discussion board for this is kinda... unwarranted? We usually do discussions if A) an admin suggests it (because we also agree with the concern and would like opinions from other editors before deciding on a big change). Or B) A user (or users) are opposing a rule that an admin(s) think is necessary or is neutral about (so there is some form of discussion between the user or admin). Or C) The rule or common practice is challenged in a blog or offtopic discussion board (What's on Your Mind Today? thread usually) or some discussion board where it was brought up, and then given its own.

I'm not necessarily saying that people need to do one or the others to make a discussion board, but from my experience, it is not really common that one is made without an admin addressing the issue first. Admins may know the reasons why these things are in place to begin with. However, in this case of exact views or no exact views, it's an issue with common practice? Or rather, lack of a common practice? The Song box 2 template is very new with us and we've had it for a little over I year if I recall correctly, so there really isn't that much of a "strict rule" in regards to it. It would generally follow the same "rules" as the old Song box, however there were changes to it.

For example
 * Uploaddates: It was recently mentioned and agreed that there is only a need for one date. This would be its first official upload. The only reasons as to why it should have multiple dates is if:
 * It was originally released as an album exclusive. If people know the date of the album's release, they can mention that in the song box and then include the PV date.
 * The original was deleted so the reupload is marked accordingly.
 * Otherwise, seeing like 2 or 3 dates (especially if one was uploaded 1 day before the other) in the same space (especially with multiple viewcounts!) looks very clunky and ugly.


 * template : The links template have an unsaid rule that the oldest upload should be listed first, followed by whatever else follows in terms of release date (and the viewcounts order should match the order so it looks more organized). This was basically only said between me and Umbreon in the edit summaries back when the song box 2 template was first being implemented; it was never an official rule. From what I understand, most, if not all, editors seem to do this practice anyways with no problem because it seems the most logical thing to do. The original song box could not be organized this way because they were set in a very specific order regardless if you inputted the Niconico link or YouTube or bilibili link first. The song box would always organize it with Niconico first, YouTube second, bilibili third, etc etc regardless.
 * template : We're already discussing this. It's basically the same problem as the template ; it's too new and there are no official rules for how it should be done. Personally, I use exact views for the 3 reasons I already listed on Zach's page and in his discussion board. I also mentioned in the discussion board that I use "exact-exact" views (in other words, not using the  template ) when there are multiple uploads on the same platform. I don't think it was really discussed either (and I don't even recall if this was discussed this with other admins) and overall I'm kinda neutral about this myself? To me, it kinda looks silly if it has both "Songs with 10K YouTube views" and "Songs with 100K YouTube views", but it's whatever floats the boat at this point. XP
 * Reprints: This isn't a concern specifically in regards to the song box 2 template itself, but it is still a new rule that people haven't fully adapted to yet. You may have noticed that sometimes we still have editors trying to put in reprints. It's possible that they are unaware that we no longer accept reprints on the wikia, so we try to mention it in the summaries (but if those aren't noticed, then the talk pages).

So I think a lot of the issues stem from the fact that we haven't implemented any rule changes when transitioning from Song box (1) to Song box 2. There probably weren't any that we thought were concerning, so the lack of new official rules to the Song box 2 basically allowed people to do as they see fit and to experiment with it. Some of the new "rules" (and I put this in quotations because these are not mentioned in the official guidelines) aren't known to everyone and were only written in discussions, edit summaries, and/or talk pages.

If it would be helpful, I can show this to the other admins and request that we should probably rewrite the guidelines to implement all that we are learning about Song box 2 and what works/doesn't work. It's been at least a year or so since we started transitioning from song box (1) to song box 2, so that's plenty of time to take notice of what needs to be changed. :/

- NebulousViper Talk Page  14:01, August 13, 2018 (UTC)

OK I just saw it for the messages he removed the part where I was less neutral, go check the history of discussions on his page. Also, never set Meerkat in the list on the first place, someone else added it (probably him). I'm not sure this is authorized to just remove the content from the discussion page... :/

If you want to show to the other admins, you can go ahead. If they have different thoughts about it, may be useful to confront them. Also, there should be soon a new layout (thanks Bunai) for the rules, so try to see with her what can be done? For the moment that's right I'm using a temporary comment for the reprints, but that's just until Bunai finds another more durable solution.

I learnt for the upload dates already, thanks to one of your edits btw, however I didn't understand very well for the view counts of several uploads on the same platform. I'll try to correct that later on one of the pages of surveillance (I'll find a way no worries). Finally the links thing was totally unknown to me, so thanks for the info. :)

Tokina8937 16:49, August 13, 2018 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's very weird to alter someone else's post without asking them. The original author should be the one altering their own messages, not someone else. :/


 * Also noticed that he removed Umbreon's warning, which is a definite no-no. People aren't supposed to be removing notices/warnings from admins. It's a sign of disrespect/unwillingness to accept advice.


 * - NebulousViper Talk Page  20:15, August 13, 2018 (UTC)

He actually did it at the same time he first answered me if I remember... Probably because he doesn't sustain criticism. However I know that we can't remove content from our user discussion pages (unless we move the discussions into an archive page, if ever the code of the whole user talk page becomes too heavy).

The thing was actually I first nicely told him to not use the rounded counts, but when I saw he modified exact ones into rounded ones, I understood that he didn't read what I said before, and that's here I wrote the clumsy (now erased by him) "warning". But it wasn't scolding. It was just to tell him basically "please listen what we are saying and take this in consideration before someone else falls onto you". When I get mad at someone, I usually get way colder than this. Then Akumi came to say she wasn't aware either, which surprised me a bit, that's then I wrote the list of examples. Lynn, Rougefan and both of us as examples. Didn't list Meekat since I wasn't sure about if he was setting up the exact view counts as well. As for Lynn, Rougefan and you, I was sure about it and I had examples of modifications under hand. Then Zach tried to answer, removed my second info (the clumsy one), and got a bit "mad". That's at this moment I a bit regretted what I had said in this "problematic" paragraph... ><

After, the alteration of the original message... I'll leave it like this for this time, but next time, this will probably be a revert. But I still don't understand why he did this (I looked at the history and I know this is not your kind of things (to Akumi and you)).

Hope he understands now, because when I read his talk page, he had difficulties when you set the warning for Chinese pages... Thanks again :s

Tokina8937 20:43, August 13, 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, I can see that. I don't think your response was that bad. I've seen a lot worse (mine can get very out of hand at times). I wouldn't worry too much about it. It bothers me more that he changed your message though.


 * I honestly don't know much about Meerkat's viewcount style either. I don't really stalk her edits because she generally does a good job so there's no need for me to check. I mainly pay more attention to people adding Chinese pages, which is how I caught Zach's additions and why I left the message I wrote to him. Like I've already explained to him, I'm currently the only active editor who deals with Chinese pages and content. Personally, I'm not fluent in the language (I only know survival words and can read a little), but I know enough to be able to make the pages (for character and product information, I'm heavily reliant on native friends). The things I can't do are translations, interpretations, and context (which is why editors like Umbreon usually adjust the spacings in pinyin because I don't know if it's one word or two separate words). There are over 700 Chinese song pages, all done within 5 years (because there were less than 10 when I started here in 2013). That's a lot for me to look after. In addition, on the day Zach added the page, I was trying to deal with Moke and Qingxian's stuff because they released, so it was way too many for me to handle like that. As much as I would like more editors to help with Chinese, I would strongly prefer people who have a grasp on how the language works or natives. I don't appreciate quick copy-and-paste jobs. I don't know if they still do it now, but this is a problem Vocaloid Lyrics Wikia had. They tended to copy-and-paste my earlier pages and never update them whenever I do it, so there's a handful of pages that were incorrect on their end.


 * I also mentioned that there was another user who stressed me out over Chinese pages like this. It was a lot worse back then, because they were also adding Japanese pages that weren't very good. It actually bothered the people trying to clean up after them. This user was very fast-paced, making 3-6 pages a day without checking their work and it was very obvious that they weren't. The behavior is what we called "quantity over quality": an action that the user cares more about pumping out more pages, but not being careful to check that they were good. This user also did a lot of sloppy copy-and-paste jobs (and like Vocaloid Lyrics Wikia did with my early pages, they also copied the pages this user did, so they too had some incorrect pages). It was a big deal at the time. This was also the time that I, and others, eventually started responding in ways that were out of hand and uncalled for (which is why I mentioned this in the first paragraph) because of how many times we were asking them to stop. We lost our patience, though it did not excuse our choice in words and actions. When I said not to worry too much about your response, I do mean that. It's not as bad as what I did years ago. ;w;


 * - NebulousViper Talk Page  22:20, August 13, 2018 (UTC)

Response
IF you check the templates themselves often the gap is found on the template. There is also no harm in a gap at all and it gives a little breather. When I edit and see all templates next to each other it makes it a little bit harder to read. Your edit is somewhat pointless and often we do list templates under each other. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 21:13, August 21, 2018 (UTC)

Weird because I didn't have this difficulty. '-' But as you wish. Thanks for the explanations :)

Note to myself: this is the paragraph for the esthetism cancelling reason.

Tokina8937 21:17, August 21, 2018 (UTC)

About CIDR Blocking
I know enough about range IP blocking, let me know if Damesuke doesn't respond in time, I think I know how to set it. O Herman (talk) 09:39, August 22, 2018 (UTC)