Talk:Flower/@comment-53539-20190101135810/@comment-27395179-20190123025017

Just a heads up that this is extremely long, and I apologize in advance.

Im curious as to how ghost and their fans are somehow the cause of this; is it just because they use flower in many of their songs? Aka, usage from a popular producer that has historically portrayed her with her more androgynous v4 design somehow spreads the idea that she isn’t canonically a girl? It could somehow be tied into how ghost is non binary as well, but I feel like it’s just a general audience who had no idea of flower’s v3 suddenly being introduced to her more recent design.

As a trans person myself, I actually get extremely frustrated when people say flower is trans or nb when she’s canonly a girl. It’s a really big thing in general western fandom for anything to make characters lgbt+, which is fine until it starts messing with canon info. It really bothers me when people ignore canon info to fit a headcanon that can’t mutually exist. That being said, I really don't care about there being a trans or nb vocaloid, because as long as there isnt’ canon info that conflicts with it, you can imagine the vocaloid to be whatever the heck you want and portray them however you want in a song you create. VY1 and their series, like you said already, are also canonly genderless, but people like to forget that for some reason and it ticks me off. If I had to guess, people probably don’t care because VY1 is just a fan, which lacks the impact of having a vocaloid present non-binary in a humanoid form.

The second point that I want to touch on is the Daughter of Evil thing, and am only including because it was mentioned. I'm fully open to a mod moving it to the DoE or EC page or something btw, since I really only lurk here to check for new vocebank releases and don't exactly know where to put this; while it's related to angel's comment, isn't related to flower.

You always mention the DoE series as an example of a series that isn’t good and gets way too much attention. While not entirely false, that is a somewhat misconstrued statement, and it’s something I’ve been wanting to bring attention to for a while now since it’s brought up in many of your posts. The Evillious Chronicles has always suffered the short end of the stick when it comes to a presence in the vocaloid community. The majority of people don’t know that the series didn’t actually end until 2018. Due to the DoE song series’ early popularity, the series has been tainted by old theories and misinformation/mistranslations that still plague the fandom to this day; it’s a hole that the series was never able to fully recover from. It’s extremely frustrating, and because of all this, the vast majority of people don’t even know what the Daughter of Evil series actually *is*. This can be chalked up to much of the fandom perpetually being stuck in 2008 and only recently starting to recover from that, but that’s a topic for another day.

I myself fully 100% agree that in terms of song structure and music composition, the DoE series is really, really not the best. I know that this is the point that you’re trying to make, and I agree with that. However, I don’t fault the series for that nor do I think that the series itself is bad as a result. mothy had only ever made one song in his entire music career prior to daughter of evil. Before that he was simply a bassist who had never done anything original. No one’s first vocaloid works are stellar, unless they’ve been producing music prior to vocaloid. mothy's more recent works, like master of the heavenly yard, and pretty much every new song from the Clockwork Lullaby album, is leagues better than the DoE series. Hell, even his older songs like Capriccio Farce and Watching Us are leagues better than DoE. The fandom simply happened to peak his popularity at a time where he wasn’t that great of a producer. I wouldn't say that’s enough to call the series bad. But the songs in terms of their music production? Yes, definitely.

The reason why the statement “The Daughter of Evil series is bad” is misconstrued is because the Daughter of Evil series is more than one thing. Like I said before, yes, the music production is bad and people got carried away with it, but there’s a reason for that. That reason being that mothy is a storyteller (he is a full-time author and has many published novels, after all). I haven’t been in the vocaloid fandom for as long as you have, only joining this time in 2013, but if there’s a singular thing that has stood out to me the most over my 6 years here is that many people in the "stereotypical, stuck in 2008" vocaloid fandom care more about the story portrayed in the song rather than what the song sounds like. It's very apparent if one looks at the comments; there will be tons of people saying they wish to have songs with stories like this rather than the "love song and drug crap" on the radio. If it has an intriguing story that people like, people will like the song even if the music production sucks. I’m not sure why so many people are like this either. People are captivated with the universe that mothy has crafted, and they are interested in and care about his characters the same way anyone would be with any other form of media. When people say that they like the daughter of evil series, the vast majority of them are talking about the story of the daughter of evil series, not the music composition. That’s why it’s popular. Comparing it to AAA songs that don’t get attention is null and void unless said song has a similar captivating story, because these types of people care more about an interesting story than anything else.

The last, slightly unrelated, thing that I never see anyone talk about or even care about its existence is that of the Daughter of Evil novel series. I saw people who were surprised that the Rin/Len Daughter/Servant of Evil Dollfie Dream outfits were “from the novels,” which frankly put is baffling. At this point, the DoE series is intended to be defined by its novels, not the songs--so much so that mothy’s main focus isn’t even producing music anymore. He’s a full-time author, and he nowadays only makes songs so he can release something at comiket every august. Not only is DoE just a novel, but a 4-part novel series that has several manga bonus stories and is in turn part of a larger 8-ish part novel series. It’s a small part of a larger story. All the characters are fleshed out, there’s interesting plots and character development, and it creates a cohesive universe with recognizable characters. Saying the Daughter of Evil series is bad is going to upset some, because when that statement is said, quite a handful of their brains go directly to the 4 part novel series, which barely has anything to do with the songs other than fleshing out its story. 1 out of the 4 books has Rin/Len/Riliane/Allen as its focus. 1 of them is about Miku/Haku/Michaela/Clarith. And the other two are completely original plots that no one remembers exists because they don't have songs (handbeat clocktower doesn’t count because it was only made to promote the last novel release, therefore not talking about anything from the books other than a glossed over version of the climax in order to hook people into buying the novel).

I'm not sure where I’m going with this anymore, but it also annoys me that people say that the Daughter of Evil series is great when they don’t even know the majority of what actually goes on in the series. A lot of the vocaloid community is messed up in this way, but at the end of the day like I said, a lot of people who emphasize the greatness of the Daughter of Evil series seem to care more about story than music composition, and because DoE were early vocaloid songs, they got swept up into a mess they shouldn’t be a part of anymore.

I also would love to point out that around half of the EC fandom hates the DoE series (both the songs and the novels) with a burning passion simply because of its tendency to overshadow everything else in the series; they get extremely frustrated by its overpopularity as well. Just something fun to think about.