Talk:Kagamine Rin & Len/@comment-103.57.39.118-20191021094354/@comment-53539-20191021155547

I think the reason its a habit of pointing out their flaws is because so many Kagamine fans aren't aware of them or generally ignore them. Put yourself in the mindset of a more rabid fan who thinks the Kagamines are the greatest thing since sliced bread. To top it off... Save perhaps Sonika, or Galaco's original voicebank, maybe even the VOCALOID first stuff, there aren't many bad voicebanks or ones with well documented bad vocals. So with that in mind, fans who go on about how great they are or how their the best Vocaloid, will not see the irony.

The thing with the voice is this... Realism is part of Vocaloid. And when you pitch them two against realistic vocals, you'll start hearing the problems. Lets pitch Len versus Arsloid, Zola Project, Fukase, Yohioloid in one direction for post puberty and Oliver in the other direction for pre-puberty. He isn't child-like enough to mimic accurately a child vocal and he isn't a good match for those who are post because the few "masculine" trait he has collasp too easy. But you know what he often is a match for? A number of mature female vocalists.

I think at the end of the day, its good that a person can like a vocal despite that. But bare in mind, the voice is suppose to be the most important part of the Vocaloid, its in the name "VOCAL"oid. A flawed vocal is a flawed vocal no matter how much you spin it or try and ignore it. But there is a bit more to the problem then this.

Lets put it this way... Name all the things they have going for them.

Then... Match them to other Vocaloids and find 1 trait that isn't shared by another Vocaloid at this point.

After MEIKO, the Kagamine vocals are CFMs least stand out vocalists because there is another Vocaloid that is either their voice type one way or another and does it better. I don't think something being in a common vocal type should be considered "bad" because a this point so many vocalists are in common vocal types that its petty to use it against a Vocaloid. Otherwise you'd have no reason to like Meiko alone. She was LITERALLY made with no standing out traits on purpose.

The problem is that the way their made out to be by some fans, well... For example, the Kagamines can do Enka, but so can Sachiko and she does it better by far. But because "Len is cute" or "Rin is cute" their going to be considered "the best" for this genre of music. There are versions of Phantom of the opera with Miku in that people recon is the best because of how cute Miku sounds... Even though Tonio and Prima have technically the best one out. So people can get fustrated with fans of certain Vocaloids who overstate how good a cover is because the rule is it doesn't matter how good or bad it is, if it uses the Kagamines, its "good".

And furthermore, any other "twin" vocals get put down as a "Kagamine clone" so Anon & kanon or MEIKA Hime & Mikoto fans may get a bit hissy towards the Kagamine fandom for this reason.

Its not the other Vocaloids are perfect, as I've said a lot of the problem is down to how much we know about them. But in 2019 unlike 2009 the producers using Vocaloid don't give out as many details on the entire Vocaloid cast. And some Vocaloids barely get a look in, so if no one uses them no one can tell others what their like.

The problem is that Kagamine fans had a reputation as well in the past. When I joined the fandom in 2010, it was accepted that the Kagamines had the general worst set of fans because they put too much emphasis on music like Daughter of Evil, went on about how often their favourite Vocaloids "die" and how unfair it was... Etc, etc. Generally, they got a bad reputation and it came from pure annoyance, so certain other fans often expressed their disdain towards them.

I tend to think Luka has the worst fans thee days as "Luka can do no wrong" seems to be a common attitude towards her and you'll be hard pressed to find a fan that admits she is bad. And generally, Miku fans give Vocaloid fans a worst reputation and always have done, so I think the Kagamines got the worst end of the deal, but you have to bare in mind that its easier to accpt Miku has flaws even among Miku fans.

I think this is why its always been easier to say how bad the pair are in general, because until V4x they were mostly a bad set of vocals, so when their fans went on about how great they were they got laughed at by other Vocaloid fans. And generally because of the Kagamine fans reputation they were shunned as a general annoyance. I mean when I was clearing out the answer wiki (wikia then shut it down) the most common questions to see have been asked were about relationships. The most common was the Kagamines. 1/3 of all questions were relation to them and likely about 3/4 of them were on THEIR relationship. Top it off, songs made in 2007-2009 were not bad, but everyone likely gets fed up with the Daughter of Evil being all the Kagamine fans talk about, plus a few others.

I think half of it is to do with age of the fans as most of their fans are going to be about that age of 14 and are immature for the most part. Versus Luka fans which are going to be older teens and young adults. The attitude is going to be different between the two age groups and towards each other.

If the poll was in Japan, Rin would be the winner. She has a lot more usage and fans and is generally considered the better vocal. Plus the Japanese aren't so into male vocals over female.

But generally, from a POV of a non-Kagamine fan, my issue is when I joined the fandom, I set myself out to be a English Vocaloid fan. I spent the first 2-5 years enduring anti-Engloid and English Vocaloid hate because its not Japanese. I saw myths and lies told about them because people didn't want to accept they could sound good or were better then they are. If you want a comparison, you don't know what its like to be a fan of something that the majority of the Vocaloid fandom was taking cheap shots at for kicks. To me, saying the Kagamines have flaws is at least factual, compared to what I've seen told about the interests of my fandom. To me, pointing out a flaw is no big deal, because Vocaloids are themselves flawed to begin with.

https://vocaloid.fandom.com/wiki/Controversy_Concerns/Product_results_and_expectations#Realism

I don't view the Vocaloid franchise as this special snowflake of a product that can out do singers in real life. And I point out flaws of Kagamines, Luka and everything. I like Vocaloid as much as I hate it and while it is a lot more difficult to point out its pros then its flaws, I don't pretend it can outclass a real singer yet nor that any single vocal is so incredible its without criticism. How I express my love for Vocaloid is researching about them and spread "the love" via information. So to me, its no big deal when I say something is flawed,because I like things despite how flawed they are.

I mean come on, I liked the Atari's vocal synth tech.

https://chipspeech.fandom.com/wiki/Rotten.ST

Listen to Rotten.ST and tell me I can't like it despite how bad it is and I'll tell you "who cares?". It is not about how good or bad something is, its if you enjoy it despite any flawd with it.

But while you say you like the Kagamines despite their flaw, for everyone of you, then is a dozen others who refuse to believe something can be flawed.