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(Regarding Kotone, Yori, and KEiKU)
(Regarding Kotone, Yori, and KEiKU: Re)
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[[User:Sneko|Sneko]] 21:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 
[[User:Sneko|Sneko]] 21:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
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:In regards to the fact that Yori was created by someone other than yourself, the statement is misleading. She was created by your sister (as she states you are her sister on her youtube channel, something which you claim i didn't read) and as such you have close, potentially infulential ties to one another. The legitimacy of your work must therefore be in doubt. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest Conflict of Interest] for more information.
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:If you want to play on words, i'll bite. You'll note that the word used is establish''ed'' and not establish. The first is the past tense, the second is the present tense. It means your vocaloid must already be fully cenceptualised and must be as near to a ''finished product'' as possible. I find that hard to beleive with only one or two songs and a similar amount of art to your vocaloids' names. Almost all vocaloids go through several iterations before ending up with a version that is considered complete. To put it into prespective, Neru Akita had hundreds of people working on her over the months before we finally arrived at the vocaloid we have today.
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:Let me put this example to you: If i were to create a quick drawing, hum a few notes into my mic and then slap them both together on youtube and call it a vocaloid then start demanding that it be listed alongside other fanmades for the soul reason of ''technically'' being a fanmade vocaloid, you'd think i'm crazy. There is no golden rule fanmades must adhere to in order to be entered into the Wiki, but they '''must''' at the very least have 3rd party sources. Proof that someone other than yourself is genuinly interested in your work.
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:As for KEiKO's name i'll quote (again off the site you claim i did not read) ''Origin: UNKNOWN ( America is Suspected )'' Why would America be suspected if she has a Japanese name? The first thing you learn about someone is their name and it often tells you a lot about the persons nationality. Ming Lee, Hanz Werner, Abduhl Muhammed etc. When you think KEiKO you immediatly think Japan, and that isn't just me who thinks in this manner. Anyway, this is an issue for the original author to get her facts straightened out (and that doesn't mean changing their name/nationality, but providing more insight as to why she is named that way while also ''suspected'' of being American.)
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:I'll agree with you on the fact that the capitlization is mostly a personal opinion, but that doesn't mean others don't also share it. Again, a name says a lot about a person and the manner in which the name is capitlised may spell doom or boon for the vocaloid. Its not a reason to take the vocaloid down, hence why it wasn't listed with my 3 guidline points. It's feedback which as an author interested in improving your vocaloid you should be happy and willing to recieve, even if you don't agree with it.
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:You may also want to start arguing why your vocaloid(s) should be on this Wiki rather than simply countering my points. This is not a personal attack or justificaiotn. If you can provide a strong argument on why they should be kept and other users agree with that, there is no reason to not reinstate them. It is simply a matter of course we take when a vocaloids legitimacy comes into play. It is up to you to prove their legitimacy for this Wiki. [[User:Kaiseine|Kaiseine]] 23:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:08, June 21, 2009

Ai Kotone, Yori Hadene and KEiKU

I would like to put into question the valididity of the Vocaloids Ai Kotone, Yori Hadene and KEiKU, all added by the user Sneko.

Using the guidlines at the top of page the vocaloids have the following problems:

1. Avoid adding new character entries that you yourself have created, conceptualized or produced. Doing so may constitute a Conflict of Interest and may be removed.

Baring KEiKU, the vocaloids are the oringal concept of the user and her sister. This obviously leads to questions about wether the infomation is accurate or has no factual base. I have looked into the various links provided and have found no pictures or text hinting at any of the descriptions of the vocaloids provided. It must be fair to assume the descriptions of these vocaloids were simply created for this page alone.

2. Characters to be added must be established, meaning it is not just a mere idea. An established character has a number of existing works to their name. If existing works are not available, it must at least have a concept art, or a pledge by the author to produce so in the future.

Using links provided and searches on Youtube and Nicovideo,Ai Katone has a total of 3 songs (2 of which are duets), Yori Hadene has 2 songs (1 of which is also a duet with the former) and KEiKU has 3 songs (1 of which is a duet with Ai Katone). All of Yori Hadene's and KEiKU's songs have been made within the last month so they will not have had time to become established within the fan community. Ai Kotone has had his songs on release for about 2 months yet has less than 500 combined views overall for his videos. These Vocaloids are clearly not established yet.

3. Sources must be provided to further prove their concepts, like links to homepages, features, and such.

The only sources provided are links to youtube accounts or playlists. I have attempted to find other works and 3rd party sources for the vocaloids on Nicovideo, Youtube, popular search engines etc. and have found nothing at all. I'd also question the fact why the authors own youtube accounts are linked. The links to the vocaloids songs lead there anyhow, wouldn't the better option be to put down the creators name and leave it at that? The message coming across now is that these vocaloids are here to increase the authors popularity.

Other issues: KEiKO's name should be brought into question. It is clearly Japanese yet she does not have any Japanese Kanji or Kana to back this up. A Japanese based vocaloid with a Japanese name must be accompanied by Japanese characters to appear on this Wiki. The use of capital latters is also in question. It makes the character look childish and slapped together just for a bit of fun. I'm not sure a name such as this should be used in the Wiki, considerng all other vocaloids use traditonal English capitlisation for their English translated names.

Regarding Kotone, Yori, and KEiKU

Firstly, Kotone Ai, although created and added by me, was later taken down after the rules were posted on the page. However, someone else put him up after this. I did however, put up Yori and KEiKU who, according to your rules, shouldn't be taken down. One, Yori belongs to someone else as stated in his description, who I've neither conceptualized nor own. Along with this, you have no evidence that me and the creator of Yori are related, and drew a false assumption. You also made a false assumption in saying that their descriptions were "created for this page alone", when all characters already had a pre-existing description in either their own channel pages or the creator's page.


Rule number two states that the character has to be "established" not "established within the fan community".


" es·tab·lish (-stblsh)

tr.v. es·tab·lished, es·tab·lish·ing, es·tab·lish·es

1. To set up; found. "


This is the first definition of established quoted from a dictionary.


There was also no mention that the character had to have more than 500 views, had to have a certain number of songs, nor that it had to be popular amongst the fanbase. And, if you were to base yourself off of those standards, there were multiple videos posted by accounts outside of the provided, for example, song previews as well as the duets, that with the singles, total to more than 500 views, anyway.


In regards to rule number 3, links of reference were provided. There was no mention that they had to be available on NicoVideo or anything of the sort. Usernames are placed within videos to credit the original authors, and for nothing more. If anything, it's not to create more popularity for the singers, but vise-versa. Also, all characters have character images in the videos themselves. The creator links were placed there for reference use only.


KEiKU's lacks a Japanese translation to her name because she's wasn't created in Japan. If you had bothered to read any of the description on the creator's page given as a reference, you would understand that KEiKU is American-made and able to sing in Japanese. Saying that the use of capitalization sounds "childish" sound more like a personal issue, seeing as how KAITO and MEIKO, who are official Vocaloids, do not have a Katakana, Hiragana, or Kanji spellings to their names.


I found your argument unfair. I don't believe something should be taken down based on false assumptions, and personal opinions.


Sneko 21:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

In regards to the fact that Yori was created by someone other than yourself, the statement is misleading. She was created by your sister (as she states you are her sister on her youtube channel, something which you claim i didn't read) and as such you have close, potentially infulential ties to one another. The legitimacy of your work must therefore be in doubt. See Conflict of Interest for more information.
If you want to play on words, i'll bite. You'll note that the word used is established and not establish. The first is the past tense, the second is the present tense. It means your vocaloid must already be fully cenceptualised and must be as near to a finished product as possible. I find that hard to beleive with only one or two songs and a similar amount of art to your vocaloids' names. Almost all vocaloids go through several iterations before ending up with a version that is considered complete. To put it into prespective, Neru Akita had hundreds of people working on her over the months before we finally arrived at the vocaloid we have today.
Let me put this example to you: If i were to create a quick drawing, hum a few notes into my mic and then slap them both together on youtube and call it a vocaloid then start demanding that it be listed alongside other fanmades for the soul reason of technically being a fanmade vocaloid, you'd think i'm crazy. There is no golden rule fanmades must adhere to in order to be entered into the Wiki, but they must at the very least have 3rd party sources. Proof that someone other than yourself is genuinly interested in your work.
As for KEiKO's name i'll quote (again off the site you claim i did not read) Origin: UNKNOWN ( America is Suspected ) Why would America be suspected if she has a Japanese name? The first thing you learn about someone is their name and it often tells you a lot about the persons nationality. Ming Lee, Hanz Werner, Abduhl Muhammed etc. When you think KEiKO you immediatly think Japan, and that isn't just me who thinks in this manner. Anyway, this is an issue for the original author to get her facts straightened out (and that doesn't mean changing their name/nationality, but providing more insight as to why she is named that way while also suspected of being American.)
I'll agree with you on the fact that the capitlization is mostly a personal opinion, but that doesn't mean others don't also share it. Again, a name says a lot about a person and the manner in which the name is capitlised may spell doom or boon for the vocaloid. Its not a reason to take the vocaloid down, hence why it wasn't listed with my 3 guidline points. It's feedback which as an author interested in improving your vocaloid you should be happy and willing to recieve, even if you don't agree with it.
You may also want to start arguing why your vocaloid(s) should be on this Wiki rather than simply countering my points. This is not a personal attack or justificaiotn. If you can provide a strong argument on why they should be kept and other users agree with that, there is no reason to not reinstate them. It is simply a matter of course we take when a vocaloids legitimacy comes into play. It is up to you to prove their legitimacy for this Wiki. Kaiseine 23:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
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