Ai Kotone, Yori Hadene and KEiKU
I would like to put into question the valididity of the Vocaloids Ai Kotone, Yori Hadene and KEiKU, all added by the user Sneko.
Using the guidlines at the top of page the vocaloids have the following problems:1. Avoid adding new character entries that you yourself have created, conceptualized or produced. Doing so may constitute a Conflict of Interest and may be removed.
Baring KEiKU, the vocaloids are the oringal concept of the user and her sister. This obviously leads to questions about wether the infomation is accurate or has no factual base. I have looked into the various links provided and have found no pictures or text hinting at any of the descriptions of the vocaloids provided. It must be fair to assume the descriptions of these vocaloids were simply created for this page alone.2. Characters to be added must be established, meaning it is not just a mere idea. An established character has a number of existing works to their name. If existing works are not available, it must at least have a concept art, or a pledge by the author to produce so in the future.
Using links provided and searches on Youtube and Nicovideo,Ai Katone has a total of 3 songs (2 of which are duets), Yori Hadene has 2 songs (1 of which is also a duet with the former) and KEiKU has 3 songs (1 of which is a duet with Ai Katone). All of Yori Hadene's and KEiKU's songs have been made within the last month so they will not have had time to become established within the fan community. Ai Kotone has had his songs on release for about 2 months yet has less than 500 combined views overall for his videos. These Vocaloids are clearly not established yet.3. Sources must be provided to further prove their concepts, like links to homepages, features, and such.
The only sources provided are links to youtube accounts or playlists. I have attempted to find other works and 3rd party sources for the vocaloids on Nicovideo, Youtube, popular search engines etc. and have found nothing at all. I'd also question the fact why the authors own youtube accounts are linked. The links to the vocaloids songs lead there anyhow, wouldn't the better option be to put down the creators name and leave it at that? The message coming across now is that these vocaloids are here to increase the authors popularity.
Other issues: KEiKU's name should be brought into question. It is clearly Japanese yet she does not have any Japanese Kanji or Kana to back this up. A Japanese based vocaloid with a Japanese name must be accompanied by Japanese characters to appear on this Wiki. The use of capital latters is also in question. It makes the character look childish and slapped together just for a bit of fun. I'm not sure a name such as this should be used in the Wiki, considerng all other vocaloids use traditonal English capitlisation for their English translated names.
Regarding Kotone, Yori, and KEiKU
Firstly, Kotone Ai, although created and added by me, was later taken down after the rules were posted on the page. However, someone else put him up after this. I did however, put up Yori and KEiKU who, according to the rules, shouldn't be taken down. One, Yori belongs to someone else as stated in his description, who I've neither conceptualized nor own. Along with this, you have no evidence that me and the creator of Yori are related, and drew a false assumption. You also made a false assumption in saying that their descriptions were "created for this page alone", when all characters already had a pre-existing description in either their own channel pages or the creator's page.
Rule number two states that the character has to be "established" not "established within the fan community".
" es·tab·lish (-stblsh)
tr.v. es·tab·lished, es·tab·lish·ing, es·tab·lish·es
1. To set up; found. "
This is the first definition of established quoted from a dictionary.
There was also no mention that the character had to have more than 500 views, had to have a certain number of songs, nor that it had to be popular amongst the fanbase. And, if you were to base yourself off of those standards, there were multiple videos posted by accounts outside of the provided, for example, song previews as well as the duets, that with the singles, total to more than 500 views, anyway.
In regards to rule number 3, links of reference were provided. There was no mention that they had to be available on NicoVideo or anything of the sort. Usernames are placed within videos to credit the original authors, and for nothing more. If anything, it's not to create more popularity for the singers, but vise-versa. Also, all characters have character images in the videos themselves. The creator links were placed there for reference use only.
KEiKU's lacks a Japanese translation to her name because she's wasn't created in Japan. If you had bothered to read any of the description on the creator's page given as a reference, you would understand that KEiKU is American-made and able to sing in Japanese. Saying that the use of capitalization sounds "childish" sound more like a personal issue, seeing as how KAITO and MEIKO, who are official Vocaloids, do not have a Katakana, Hiragana, or Kanji spellings to their names.
I found your argument unfair. I don't believe something should be taken down based on false assumptions, and personal opinions.
Sneko 21:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- In regards to the fact that Yori was created by someone other than yourself, the statement is misleading. She was created by your sister (as she states you are her sister on her youtube channel, something which you claim i didn't read) and as such you have close, potentially infulential ties to one another. The legitimacy of your work must therefore be in doubt. See Conflict of Interest for more information.
- If you want to play on words, i'll bite. You'll note that the word used is established and not establish. The first is the past tense, the second is the present tense. It means your vocaloid must already be fully cenceptualised and must be as near to a finished product as possible. I find that hard to beleive with only one or two songs and a similar amount of art to your vocaloids' names. Almost all vocaloids go through several iterations before ending up with a version that is considered complete. To put it into prespective, Neru Akita had hundreds of people working on her over the months before we finally arrived at the vocaloid we have today.
- Let me put this example to you: If i were to create a quick drawing, hum a few notes into my mic and then slap them both together on youtube and call it a vocaloid then start demanding that it be listed alongside other fanmades for the soul reason of technically being a fanmade vocaloid, you'd think i'm crazy. There is no golden rule fanmades must adhere to in order to be entered into the Wiki, but they must at the very least have 3rd party sources. Proof that someone other than yourself is genuinly interested in your work.
- As for KEiKO's name i'll quote (again off the site you claim i did not read) Origin: UNKNOWN ( America is Suspected ) Why would America be suspected if she has a Japanese name? The first thing you learn about someone is their name and it often tells you a lot about the persons nationality. Ming Lee, Hanz Werner, Abduhl Muhammed etc. When you think KEiKO you immediatly think Japan, and that isn't just me who thinks in this manner. Anyway, this is an issue for the original author to get her facts straightened out (and that doesn't mean changing their name/nationality, but providing more insight as to why she is named that way while also suspected of being American.)
- I'll agree with you on the fact that the capitlization is mostly a personal opinion, but that doesn't mean others don't also share it. Again, a name says a lot about a person and the manner in which the name is capitlised may spell doom or boon for the vocaloid. Its not a reason to take the vocaloid down, hence why it wasn't listed with my 3 guidline points. It's feedback which as an author interested in improving your vocaloid you should be happy and willing to recieve, even if you don't agree with it.
- You may also want to start arguing why your vocaloid(s) should be on this Wiki rather than simply countering my points. This is not a personal attack or justificaiotn. If you can provide a strong argument on why they should be kept and other users agree with that, there is no reason to not reinstate them. It is simply a matter of course we take when a vocaloids legitimacy comes into play. It is up to you to prove their legitimacy for this Wiki. Kaiseine 23:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the ongoing issue
I, um, don't think I've ever met a person aside from yourself who considered a "Youtube family" to be real. But hey, whatever floats your boat. I was never arguing for the sake of keeping my Vocaloid up, nor the ones posted, rather I was arguing because of your unjust reasoning and false assumptions.
And yes, you would be considered crazy. But you're wrong if you're implying that all that went into our Vocaloids was to "hum a few notes" and "create a quick drawing". It takes work to sing as a different person with a different voice style and a different gender. Not to mention all the work that goes into mixing --and often when things don't sound as intended-- rerecording. Drawings take me roughly 10 hours to complete. So you could at least be kind enough to acknowledge that this wasn't something merely "slapped together".
And that's all I really wanted to say. I have nothing else to say seeing as how the other two aren't my creations. I gotta say, though. Wouldn't I be considered the third party if I'm putting up someone else's work? Wouldn't that make me someone else interested in a person's work? What about all of the people who go out of their way to leave nice comments on our vocaloids? Are they not considered 3rd party? Is a fansite or something relative really necessary?
But enough of that. It's pointless to keep arguing as I'm sure you've made up your mind no matter what I and everyone else may think. Although, I did want to ask the following. Seeing as how Kotone, Yori, and KEiKU are not allowed to exist on the page, would I be wrong in creating a new page specially for WIP Human Vocaloids?
Not just for the sake of my own character, but for anyone else on Youtube that might want a chance.
Sneko 00:04, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- All right, this time I'll answer.
- Unjust reasoning and false assumptions aren't based on rule interpretation, and I think Kaisene is trying to be as neutral as possible, because it won't be just you who will be questioned... in fact, there are other people who have been questioned as well. Kaisene is interrogating you in regards to the legitimacy and worthiness of your entries because there has been an influx of character entries that end up being abandoned, and end up polluting the wiki with cruft. Don't think you're being singled out-- anyone else doing the same thing is similarly questioned.
- CoI still kicks in because you have a degree of affinity with the mentioned two, and has their influence, but that's just me.
- WIP Human Vocaloids? Your entries should go to Vocaloid Wiki: Proposed Fanmade Vocaloids, if that's what you're talking about. O Herman 04:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it have made more sense to move the entries to the corresponding place instead of removing it? Anyways, I'm sorry for the trouble this might've caused. To be honest, I wasn't expecting such an ordeal. Sneko 04:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Like with everything, we still listen to explanations before booting them there. O Herman 11:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
May I say another opinion?
Originally this "Human Vocaloid" article itself have a big problem. Those "Human Vocaloids" are mere fandub singers. The pictures of the characters are mere avatar of the singers. And the names of the characters are mere handle name of the singers. Those "Human Vocaloids" have nothing related to Vocaloid software at all basically. Their creator uses the words "Vocaloid" in selfishness, but they do not have objective grounds to be mentioned in Vocaloid Wiki.
Saying honestly, I want to delete this page and all of the personal derived characters from this Wiki. I think the characters which does not use the Vocaloid software and the characters which is not shared by plural creators should not be mentioned in this Wiki. However, this is my personal opinion. My personal opinion must not be carried out immediately so that personal character must not be mentioned in this Wiki.--Ymiyass900 07:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Unnotable as they are, fandub singers do exist and influence the Vocaloid scene in other ways. But another name to call them would be desirable since the only affinity they have with Vocaloid is that they are fandub singers of music utilized with Vocaloid. They should be called Uttate Mita, but last I checked, they don't use avatars that resembles a derived character. O Herman 11:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
This is for you Vocaloid Wikia, for being so amazing. <3
- It still stands that the rules of the Wiki needs to be enforced, so it's tough if you do really want your work to get off the ground. The best venue to complain about that is always here in the talkpage, not in YouTube where you stand to get dissed just as bad. O Herman 06:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- You seem to think you are being specifically targeted here. That is not the case. Up until around a month ago there were sparse rules on vocaloid fanmades which were rarely, if ever enforced. Eventually the page was a complete mess. I'd say there were well over a hundred entries ranging from the officaly endorsed fanmades, right down to fanmades which were little more than drawings. So the community got together and we had a very long discussion on the whole thing (see Vocaloid_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal) and we eventually decided on the rules we have here today. Some people wanted tighter regulations, another wanted them relaxed. We eventually arrived at the concensus we have today. Several members have spent hours cleaning up the fanmades and 4 entirely new articles were created to make the section more streamlined.
- We are also trying to get other parts of the site up and running still but unfortunatly we keep having to come back here and sort out problems here when we could be contributing elsewhere. Tell me, are you planning on being involved with other parts of this Wiki or are your fanmade entries the sole reason you are here? Please just allow us to get on with our work and don't cause a fuss when the rules are outlined. Its community concensus, not just a couple of stuck up snobs who think the wiki should run that way. Take it up with the community, don't start throwing insults. Kaiseine 08:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC)